Your Business Needs a Podcast. Here’s why…

On this episode of Open Source Growth, Dean Denny discuss the benefits of podcasting for SaaS companies. He highlights how podcasting can help build a strong brand and engage with the audience. He also provides insights on setting up a podcast, including equipment recommendations and publishing platforms. The host suggests talking about valuable topics like software marketing and lead generation to attract customers. He emphasize the importance of adding personal touches and sharing personal experiences to create a unique brand. Stay tuned for future episodes on audience engagement, storytelling frameworks, guest interviews, and metrics for measuring success.


[00:00:07] Podcasting is an effective tool for SaaS companies.

[00:01:53] Podcasting is effective for marketing.

[00:03:30] Podcasts can help build a likable brand.

[00:06:50] Calculate podcast ROI with long-term commitment.

[00:11:58] Informed marketing agency talks about everything.

[00:13:58] “Add personality, don’t overthink, just do.”

[00:15:30] Focus on the next step, overcome obstacles.

Lessons Learned

Here are the top 5 lessons learned from the podcast:

Lesson 1: Invest in Resources: Allocate resources, both financial and human, to ensure the quality and consistency of your podcast. Invest in basic equipment like microphones and editing software.

Lesson 2: Content Strategy: Develop a content strategy that resonates with your audience’s interests and pain points. Share valuable insights and experiences relevant to your industry. Infuse your personality into the content to humanize your brand.

Lesson 3: Long-Term Perspective: Understand that podcasting is a long-term endeavor that requires consistent effort and dedication. Focus on providing value to your audience over time, rather than expecting immediate results.

Lesson 4: Brand Building: Use podcasting as a tool to build a brand that goes beyond your product or service offerings. Cultivate a likeable, relatable brand persona that resonates with your target audience. Establish trust and credibility through consistent and authentic communication.

Lesson 5: Measure Success Holistically: While ROI is important, don’t solely focus on immediate financial returns. Consider other metrics such as audience engagement, brand awareness, and community building as indicators of success.

Welcome to Open Source Growth, and you’re here with Dean, founder and director of Owendenny Digital, Australia’s number one SaaS marketing agency. In today’s episode, I want to go through the power of podcasting. Why it’s an effective tool for your SaaS company? How your podcasts can help you in building a powerhouse SaaS brand.

We’ll talk about some of our own success stories from this year on our own podcast and why it worked for us, and how to properly analyze the ROI of your podcast. Then in the second half of this podcast, we want to talk about how you would go about setting up your software companies very own podcast. What equipment do you need to get started? What sort of content strategy do you need to consider, and what should you talk about?  We’ll even discuss what platforms you want to run and launch your podcast on, and tips for recording and editing your first episodes. We’ll talk in a future episode about how to grow your audience, and how to promote your podcast. But to begin with, let’s just talk about why you need to do it.

See in 2024, Our agency, Owendenny, we decided to launch a podcast. And we were really, hesitant to do so. I remember dabbling with Anchor FM many years ago when it came to this whole concept of micro podcasting, And since having a crack at that in say like 2018 and 2019. I started to recognize it’s time to take things seriously.

What I’ve found is that by doing things in half measure, your entire life,  unfortunately, everything becomes half done. And half-done bridges don’t get you anywhere in life. So we thought, you know what? Let’s actually put some money into some resources behind our podcast this year. So, then what did we actually do?

Our agency, we bought this microphone. We found great editing software,  like Descript. We used our webcam, or we recorded without a webcam because we simply didn’t have either the lighting, the confidence, or the expertise to do things well. That’s how we got started in our podcast. And throughout this year, and this journey, it has been really instrumental for our agency when it comes to becoming that authority beacon in software marketing.

It enabled us to nurture our sales leads without us having to speak to them or our marketing-qualified leads. It enabled us to reach out to our, this more via email marketing and enabled us to create amazing short-form content to support all of our demand generation efforts, whether it be on LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram or whatever. So it really opened up a massive potential for us in our business and we can only emphasize the same things for you in your software company.

Now. Why is it so effective? Why is it so powerful?

Let’s look into like how we consume content nowadays. We’ve  read content on blogs. We watch visuals and short-form videos on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and then sometimes we put on YouTube, we crack open a beer and we sit on the couch and we have a look at everything. But then when we’re in the car, we’d like to listen to things, and as humans, we’re more isolated than ever before. And we really want to be able to consume that longer form content instead of just belting at your favorite tracks in the car. And that’s why it’s so effective that you have that podcast, which can then be repurposed in many different ways.

And what’s really interesting here is that if your software company say offers a CRM solution, there are many other CRM solutions on the market. And what can be the differentiating factor other than the features and benefits in the end of the day. Is whether or not they like the brand and what your business stands for.  So podcasts can just do more than create heaps of short-form content and how you can go about clipping that and then repurposing it across your entire content distribution ecosystem.

But it can help you build a brand which is likeable, which is fun, which is fresh, which is vibrant. And it’s everything your customer buys into. Remember, apart from  benefits and features, humans want three things they want. A healthy relationship. They want health and they also want financial abundance.

But other than that, there’s this other thing that is at play and we’re all selling identity at the end of the day.  For instance, if you’re watching this podcast on say YouTube or on Spotify. If I look like a slob and I’m not presented well, and you’re listening to what I’m saying, and you’re like, Hey, I don’t agree with this guy. I don’t wish to be this human being some consciously at the end of the day, you’re going to be like, Hey, I can’t listen to you anymore. This isn’t for me. This brand’s not for me. And even though we may offer the best marketing agency solution for a software company like yours, you may not want to be involved with us. And that’s, what’s really crucial here that it can enable you to build out a brand, which is bigger than yourself.

And if you’re thinking about really expanding your software company and building out a quote-unquote brand podcast is one of the best places to start. It’s really funny. This year we’ve acquired clients simply through our podcast. We’ve had traffic from all over the world. We’ve attracted four blistered entrepreneurs, simply through the storytelling narrative our podcast and it’s, changed the way we think about it. So it’s quite, it’s one of those things where if you commit to it and you optimize well with your podcast, you can really start to build out a loyal following of great customers or great prospects, even who may even consider buying with you, but just, you can’t think of it like a direct response activity. See as a direct response advertiser, we are impatient a lot of the time in the sense that we’re expecting a return on investment. In say one month, two months or three months. What the podcast has forced us to do.

And this has been that opportunity. At Owendenny. To expand and become bigger and better than we’ve ever been before.  It’s enabled us to focus on. Okay, let’s do this for the long run, and let’s play an infinite game. Where we do this because it’s the right thing to do. And that the community needs to hear our voice. And not to participate in the noise. But to participate in the growth of the software industry. And that’s the way we look at it.

So when it comes down to analyzing the ROI  of your campaign. You could do it in a very brutal means. You could calculate the number of times. Now the number of hours spent recording the number of hours spent strategizing the number of hours entertaining. You are basically aggregating that total pool of resources, and then looking at that as your marketing costs, and then you could consider the cost of distribution, applicate amplification of your.  Of your podcast, whether it be on social media or SEO, or if you’re doing podcasts notes or whatever. And then you could then look at the total amount of revenue generated from your podcast. And then basically get a rough ROI on that.

My suggestion to you though. If you’re planning to go down this route. My recommendation is very simple. And it’s this don’t look at this with a three to six month.  Time step. You need to look at this with a long-term view. And show up every single week or every single month.  But the ROI based on those numbers for us in our first year of semi-committing to this.  Has been astronomical for our business. Now. When it comes to actually setting up a podcast, you’d be really shocked with what you need.

Today’s podcast. Believe it or not has been done on a $30 microphone. I picked up from Amazon. And the quality of this microphone is unfreaking believable. But we’ve enhanced this podcast whole lot more than you could ever believe.  You know what we’re using as well. We’re using my old iPhone 12 as the video recording system, and we’re using the connectivity feature of the iPhone to connect with my Macbook Pro. And then recording both of these tracks at the same time using Descript.

And that’s how literally we have started our podcast and the quality as you can see today is pretty damn good. Like we don’t have to go about investing in a, say like a $2,000 webcam or,   super-duper broadcasting microphone from Shure.  You don’t really need that much to get started.

In fact, you could even take it to a whole new level and just use your latest version iPhone.  And not even use this microphone, but just use the AI features, which are now found inside of descript. Believe it or not to enable what they call studio noise or studio voice. And then optimizing with the AI feature.

So the eye contact is made throughout the entire podcast. It’s actually amazing for you when it comes to doing everything for you. We are huge advocates here at Owendenny for using Descript because it just does so many amazing things, which your SaaS company and your editing team cannot live without. And I can assure you that.

Now, what about publishing your podcast? Now we use a couple of different apps here and I want to really give you some amazing insights into what we use for editing.  We used Descript and that’s what adds all the captions. That’s what does the show Nards that’s what turns this into a blog post.

And we are really hard there, but then we’ll use a second app called to develop amazing show notes. Headlines.

Everything that we need to ensure that these podcasts look really, good. In the eyes of Spotify, because one of the key areas we grow our podcast is by having STR-optimized show notes for each of the platforms. So we can attract a new audience every week based on the titles and the contents of our show. Notes or. The description of the podcast episode, and that makes massive, difference. Oh just have my dog visit me.

How cool.  I’m going to ask you to say hello there.  You can see or hear you guys, if you’re watching the video, her name is Zoe. She’s a poodle. She’s really, really beautiful. Um, You can see a little head here.

She just said, alert everybody.

So, yeah, like that’s what I would be looking into using to optimize your show notes. So then that headache of, when you say outsource this to a video editor, that they can just get the show notes done for you right away. Um, That’s really, really simple. So use Descript for editing.  Listener.FM for your show notes.

And then for publications we use the Spotify podcast feature. I think it’s called podcasting for Spotify. Um, Again, just check the show notes. That’ll all be resolved there. And then um, to go about distributing and syndicating this content across all the different platforms, from my understanding, it publishes these podcasts on like six to seven different platforms in one go. And it’s freaking amazing. Now.

Once you’ve syndicated and you’ve published stuff. You probably gonna ask me like, whoa, what the.  Well, You’ve shown me how to do it, why it’s important, but like, what do I actually talk about on my podcast? Well, you know, It’s really interesting.  We just talk about our lives at Owendenny Digital, but we do it in an informed way.

See. Marketing and sales is a way of life to us at our marketing agency. Like we, we, we live and breathe it. See, we see marketing and sales tactics take place in the day-to-day. Through our interactions with people at our cafes. Through interactions that I have with my dog, believe it or not, that same dog runs split tests on me with different toys.

She does offer testing and she does split testing. Um, And she does optimization strategies to get my attention. Like she’s the best marketer in the household, our little poodle and she’s probably the best salesperson. In our household too, when you think of it that way. So. When it comes to like what you talk about.  Obviously, you need to talk about what your customers value.

For instance, we’re a software marketing.  Agencies. What do we talk about? We talk about software marketing, that’s direct response advertising. You know how to make the most of your lead generation efforts. How to explore Facebook, LinkedIn, Google ads, YouTube ads. That’s what we’re going to be talking about. What do you need to do on a landing page to get the best? Performance. On your signup pages on your software company. What does your customer segmentation need to look like in order to achieve a flawless go-to-market strategy? What sort of things do you need to consider when working with marketing teams and sales teams and aligning them to achieve revenue goals?

Like, there are a lot of things you can talk about. In our world to add massive value to the software founders and whoever is listening to this podcast today. So when you think about it, there’s so many. Massive options for you when it comes to what you should talk about. If you know your customer’s pain points, their desires, what keeps them up at night, what they really want, what do they struggle with?

What are their daily tasks? What are their goals? What are their massive dreams and aspirations? You’ve gotta be completely fine.  Because that’s what you need to talk about, but then here’s the X factor that you need. You need to add your arm damn personality in there too.  Like I talk about my day-to-day.

I talk about the fact that I’ve quit caffeine.  I talk about the facts. That I’m changing my morning. I’m essentially biohacking my system. I’ve got an episode coming up soon. I’m going to do it with my wife. Hannah. And we’re going to be talking about how I haven’t for the first time in my entire existence. I’m 33 years of age. I didn’t get sick this year.  And that’s a massive win. And I want to really share with you the process that I went through to go through that. But like, you need to add your own personality to it. Don’t just make it about your marketing, make it about things that mean a lot to you.

Because again, that adds to the brand that you’re trying to build.


Word of advice. Just make sure that you pick a quiet room in your house. You don’t need perfect lighting. You can do a lot of that post-pride in Descript but have some relatively decent lighting. If you can afford a light ring, we’ve bought one. It’s just down there. We’re not even using it for this episode, but that was like $30 at the nearest office works or like a Home Depot or Kmart, right?

Like, you do not need expensive stuff to make your first podcast a massive success, but all you need to do is just get off your button. Do it. Like it’s a real.  It’s a really crazy thing. And.  The more I get into entrepreneurship and the more I get into marketing and the more I get into pushing myself through this ongoing personal development program, the more I’m starting to realize is that the bigger we make the obstacle in our head, the more paralyzed we become. And often, and this is one of my personal floors, which I have worked a very, very long time this year.  In overcoming, is that the more I give any gravity to a goal, the less likely it comes to its fulfillment. Whereas, what you need to do is just simply focus on the next step and just plot the next step plot, the next step plot, the next step.

I just work towards it and just do the damn thing.  Because as soon as you start to do the damn thing, that illusion of like the goal,  which is paralyzing, you start to simply fade  away.  And that’s what you need to do when it comes to your podcast. Or any of your other marketing or sales efforts for that matter?  And. Then my tips.  For today in a future episode, I’m going to talk to you about how we’ve engaged our audience and how we’ve grown our podcast, especially getting those first thousand views.

It’s really, really, really challenging to do that, especially if you’re not really investing in paid traffic and you just need to rely on the small organic audience. We’ll talk about that in our next episode, how we’ve used like storytelling frameworks um, you know, we want to also talk about how we’ve incorporated guest interviews and collaborations. And the metrics that we use to measure the success and impact of your episodes in your podcast in general. So guys, if you liked this episode, please do subscribe to the podcast on the platform that you are listening to.

We do endeavor to release at least two to three of these every single month to help you and your software company achieve your T two D three goals. That’s it for me. If you’ve got any further questions, feel free to hit me up via email. You can find my email in the job notes. And we’ll talk to you very, very soon.

I can’t wait to speak with you. On our next episode. Peace.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


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How To Build An Elite B2B SaaS Growth Marketing Team

On this episode of Open Source Growth, Dean Denny, founder and director of Australia’s top-ranked SaaS marketing agency Owen Denny Digital, discusses the importance of building an effective B2B SaaS growth marketing team. He recommends hiring a high-quality generalist, outsourcing specialist help, and hiring agencies for media buying, strategy, and SEO. He also suggests hiring from disadvantaged communities and bringing in a CMO to oversee the whole team.


[00:01:47] Building B2B SaaS team: step-by-step instructions.

[00:03:55] Marketing team part of revenue team.

[00:06:14] Enable customers to self-serve, self-submit, revenue-driven.

[00:08:27] Hire quality generalist, train, manage, align goals.

[00:18:56] Outsource copy, hire copywriter, video editor.

[00:21:23] Create content team, CMO, report up, philosophical choices.

[00:23:19] Hire agency help for growth.

Top 5 Lessons Learned from the Podcast

Lesson 1: Recognize the marketing team as part of the greater revenue team.

Align marketing efforts with sales to ensure the generation of revenue is the ultimate goal. Understand the company’s vision and revenue targets, and ensure the marketing team shares this focus.

Lesson 2: Prioritize hiring a general marketing assistant before outsourcing to agencies.

In the early stages, a versatile marketing assistant can handle various tasks, allowing the founder to focus on strategic direction. When ready to expand, consider outsourcing specific tasks to agencies based on needs.

Lesson 3: Hire an in-house copywriter early in the growth stages.

Having a consistent tone of voice across all platforms is crucial for effective communication. An in-house copywriter can maintain brand consistency and negotiate better rates with agencies while aligning content with overall marketing goals.

Lesson 4: As the team grows, bring in-house specialists like video editors.

Building an internal content creation team with specialists like video editors ensures a steady flow of high-quality content. Consider hiring from disadvantaged communities for skilled yet cost-effective talent.

Lesson 5: Introduce a Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) to oversee the entire marketing operation.

A CMO becomes essential as the team expands, managing activations, networking events, and reporting frameworks. This strategic leadership ensures efficient coordination among team members and helps the business scale effectively.

Hey. How are you going? It’s Dean here and welcome to open source growth. The #1 destination for SaaS founders, CMOs, and more to help you scale your B2B SaaS product in record time with the latest and greatest direct response advertising, demand generation and so, so, so much more. Here is a true exchange of ideas that can truly help you grow your business. And in today’s episode, I want to talk to you about how to build an elite B2B SaaS growth marketing team.

Now. If you’re wondering like, yes, we may not have a B2B SaaS product in our business. Um, We may just be a marketing agency, but what’s really fascinating about this conversation today is that, by definition, a marketing agency is essentially a marketing team. That works for you. So with my experience in growing this business to beyond eight high performing non junior team members. I do know a little bit about what a B2B SaaS needs in order to grow their business and grow a team, which is self-fulfilling. Essentially. Since. Your company. Then it provides them with engagement on your posts. It extends leads into your funnels that captures the demand. It does lead generation and it helps. Sales and marketing to work as one compelling unit together.

Now. I’m not sure how today’s podcasts going to unfold, but what I can say is this, we’re going to talk about. What. You must go in with, so the mindset. Around building this team and the mindset and you must then propagate. Through out the marketing team you build will also go into the stages of. Your business and where you’re at inside of your B2B SaaS company, you may just be a. Lone Wolf during it all. At this stage and we’ll show you through today’s podcast. How to go from lone Wolf, literally doing everything from investor relations, to building products, to running the landing pages, et cetera, et cetera. What to do, how do outsource it, what to bring in house blahdy, blahdy, blah. And we’ll go all the way from that. Up to that medium sized business or know where a real team is then starting to be required and even touch on what an agency. Is, and when you need it. But more importantly, I really want to get to the heart of the matter and provide you with some step-by-step. Instructions in regards to the team members you need to hire.

In real time. Now as part of this growth marketing team, we’re only going to be focusing on the digital today. So when it comes to activations, hiring your business development manager, Uh, hiring anything in regards to a customer success manager, et cetera, et cetera, that is old. I would say more in that customer service and sales facing capacities. We’re really only going to be focusing on the growth marketing. Member. Of the team. So. Please understand that this is our wheel house, and we’re going to just reveal to you. How you go about building this team out in real time. So let’s start off with what I think is a true misnomer. Of. Building out a marketing team is so recognize this team as a part of the greater revenue team.

Now, if you’re building a marketing team out that just does marketing over indexes on the KPIs, which had. Attributed to marketing team performance, whether it be number of leads, generated. Number of sales calls booked. Um, or you number of impressions, number of clicks, the traffic, et cetera, et cetera. If the metrics that have been established. If they are 100%. Congruent with the overarching business revenue metrics. You’re going to have some great outcomes, but you need to, before you even get into building out this team, recognize that you are part of a greater revenue team. And this is why you have. Companies that now have not chief marketing officers, but chief revenue officers. Which essentially.

Roll up.

The marketing and sales function, you need to recognize it as a revenue team. So when your marketing efforts are rolled out, that they are. Focused. And combined with the sales marketing, the sales efforts to ensure that, you know, Generating dollars and generating new clients is the peak of what people require. In your business. So first things first go in there with the mindset that, yes, this is all about generating revenue. If the marketing team that you hire, all the marketing employees. That you decide to bring into the team, do not understand this. You’re already putting yourself at a massive disadvantage, recognize what your company’s vision a north star is. And what does that revenue target look like and understand. And determine whether or not your team members know that, Hey, we actually need to get.

Our shit together so we can go about. Bringing in new people into the brand. Getting them onto the website, engaging with the valuable pages that enable our customers to essentially self-serve and then. Self submit to becoming part of the sales process. And then being able to have that. Captured information loop from the sales team, which leads to revenue, feeding that back to marketing. So your first real key here. Is a mindset shift where you need to ensure that your marketing efforts are all revenue driven or their sales led. So that’s the first thing you really need to look at. Now, when it comes to building out your team, this is where it’s going to get really funny. I’m. Looking forward to this part of the conversation today. Because when you’re building out your team for the first time, You can’t. Eat this first things first, you may not have the money. And it may just be you.

But. We live in 2023 and there are some really compelling things out there that can help you. Do a lot of your marketing, if you are a lone Wolf in your product. So for instance, just say you’re the only sole founder. That’s doing everything. The web design, the social media, all that stuff. And you don’t have the money. It’s never been a better time to be a broke founder because for less than $3 a month, you can get your hands on a copy of chat GPT four, which can help you create amazing content. If you get onto YouTube, you can look up. AI prompt. Engineering classes. You can look at what you need to say in order to develop really good copy. As long as you’ve got a basic understanding of terms like lead generation direct response advertising and the platforms. That you wish to be running ads on or writing landing pages for, or building websites for you’re going to be our carrier. And I’m, I really do emphasize that chatGPT has made it a lot easier for. Sole business owners to become successful. In short periods of time, sir, I do want to emphasize that that is a possibility for you.

Now. If I was you. And you were going to either. Make your first hire. Whether it be an agency. Or building out an internal team member. The first thing I would be choosing in my marketing team. My B2B SaaS marketing team is. I would not be opting for an agency to begin with. If I was here, the first hire I would make would be a general marketing assistant. That can help you out with the very simple things. If you need copy on our website, they can pump out the copy. If they can, if you need social posting to build out a brand that people love, you need that person inside the business you need. Uh, generalist all rounder. There may be somewhat T-shaped when it comes to a particular area.

For instance, you may be a founder or essentially a marketing lead or marketing sales led founder. And you may have really great experience when it comes to media buying. Hire that first assisted. Train them up in that media buying platform. And then put them to YouTube university and get them learning about media buying, get them learning about how to run ads, how that all fits in the grand scheme of things. When it comes to your vision. As soon as you’ve hired. That first marketing is system. Believe it or not. You remember you are having to spoon feed this person to begin with. This is whilst you’re broke. FYI. I just want to let you know that. Because if you all, at that point, when you can’t afford high quality talent, Uh, marketing system may be the very first thing you look towards. However, if you are cash strapped and you are at this stage higher. Highest quality generalist you can find to begin with. Highest quality generalists spend good money on this because they can essentially take what you’re building and run with all your ideas.

So there’s two paths. If you’re the bootstrap pop, you’re going to have to provide the person with a lot of strategic direction. So get that marketing generalist might be a, you know, a three to five years experience, but. I provide them with the direction, point them in the right direction. If you’ve got the money and you’ve owned, and this is your first marketing hire. Pay as much as you possibly can, for the best person you can afford. And expect to spend six figures on this person as they will be able to take everything and run with it. But again, What really comes down to at the end of the day is high quality management and ensuring that that person’s efforts are aligned with your revenue goals and your mission, vision for your B2B SaaS. So that’s the first thing you must do. This would be. You know, a person that can write copy, post things to social run, the old Facebook and LinkedIn and Google lied. This can be the person who can oversee and manage the website. Uh, Review the Google analytics information, even get inside of HubSpot and figure out what’s going on. That’s the very first hire you must make as a B2B growth leader. Once you get that dumb. You’re going to start to see as your business grows and you start generating leads and sales, and you start pulling off all these initiatives that there are going to be challenges along the way. Your guy, isn’t your guy or your girl. Isn’t going to be able to write enough. Copy. You’re not going to have the web development chops to do the right things. At this stage. When there are small projects to be done. Don’t go out and hire a full timer.

The next hire you must make at this point is agency assistance. If you’ve got, say a two or three person marketing team at this point, you’ve got sales reps and all that sort of stuff. You’re probably an eight person business. And at this stage, when you have yourself, plus your marketing assistant. You’ve probably got a business just doing anywhere between 10 to $15,000 a month in recurring revenue. And it’s at this stage, you need to go out and hire agencies for specialist help. Where we see a lot of our business come through it O and D digital, when it comes to media buying or strategy or whatever. Most of the businesses sit anywhere between that 20 to $50,000 a month in this SaaS journey. Why is that the case? Well, it’s because of the fact that they’re doing a lot of the good stuff, in-house, they’re acquiring users and they want to scale up quickly. And I’m sure when you’re at this point, you want to start scaling because you can see the results that are happening.

Again, you’re not going to go and just drop 20 grand a month on Facebook ads, unless you can see some meaningful results getting churned out the other end. So with your first player, that’s when you can use yourself from a strategic perspective in forming your, your high performing marketing person, or if that high-performing marketing, person’s got a better vision than you have, and you can step out of the way and just proactively manage them. Or if it’s your marketing junior, this is when you start in. Hiring agencies for specialist skills. Recognize your skills and then determine the best agencies to hire. A common one will be finding a content creation agencies. Let’s be Frank as you scale up your business and you look from scrappy to schmick, are you need a really good content marketing agency to assist you with high quality blog posts, great videos, great social posts. Your branding needs to be locked on.

That’s great skillset. We don’t have that in house that needs to be outsourced. Just say you’re great at copy, but you can’t run out. Hire the ad person, do a really, really well. Just say you’re really good at all the technical stuff, but you’ve got no strategy. Find that strategy piece, hire that person in. Like a download on all that expertise and run with it. It’s at this point where you’ve got your social media humming along. Yeah. Initial bunch of ads running, whether it be on Google, Facebook, or Metta or Instagram or LinkedIn or being, or whatever. Right. Like, this is like, it’s all happening and it’s old. I told where I could, well, to an extent, right. But then. It’s when you go. So the next stage, once again, It’s when you start. Needing some additional agency support. This is fairly common after you’ve got that first marketing person that can then manage the agencies. Instead of you trying to manage the agencies and the marketing person. That’s where it, that’s where you start to have some real wins. In your relationship with those marketing agencies?

At this point, you’re going to have ads running. If you’re marketing agencies. Good. They’ll probably write your copy for you and that’s, that would help you out. Or if you’re a content marketing agency that you’ve hired, sorry. If you’ve hired a content marketing agency. They are going to be scripting. Your videos are going to get you to speak. They going to be doing whatever. If you found an SEO agency, they’re probably writing your blog posts and stuff. It’s at this point, you need the agency to be out putting as much as you possibly, as they possibly can from a content creation perspective to ensure that your marketing. Assistant or your high-performing marketing leader. Is as leveraged as they possibly can. Again, at all of these different stages. When you hire the agency, and this is probably a subject of its own podcast, you need to really ensure that that marketing assistant or marketing leader has a really good matrix as to how they work with the agency. What does the agency need? How can we ensure that they have a really good.

How can we develop a win-win relationship with them to ensure that we’re generating users to ensure that we’re getting the right content to ensure that we’re pulling off our demand generation and our direct response advertising efforts effectively, you know what I mean? So get that reporting. I get that. Rules of the game. Get that like level playing field where you’re building out and cultivating that win-win relationship. And hiring in the agency for that specialist help. There. And then that’s like a super, super important thing. At this stage as well. Another thing that we would recommend you outsource is your web development, because at the end of the day, There’s nothing worse than a creative marketer being stuck inside a web CMS, trying to fix shit all day long. They may love web development. They may love all that stuff, but there’s nothing worse than a more of a time-suck than to get. Uh, web development. Um, responsibility inside of your business at this point. That’s the next thing you need to pretty much outsource right away. So you’ve gotten your first employee in doing some amazing work, the heavy lifting, whether they be an assistant or essentially a pseudo CMR. They managing your agencies. They’ve you’ve outsourced or your web technical challenges and things like that. And you’ve got all these initiatives rolling out. What’s the next thing. Believe it or not the most, the most important next hire. Isn’t something technical. It’s actually your copywriter. Now once you’ve got. Once now. Please hear me out here.

The reason why you want to hire a copywriter and keep them in-house it’s because of the fact that you need to ensure that your tone of voice is consistent across all of your platforms, right? So if you’re running Google ads, if you’re running Facebook ads, you’re doing organic posts on Instagram, LinkedIn being YouTube ads, whatever you’re doing, you’re sure that your tone of voice is absolutely doubted. Across the board. Because if you’ve got no one to write content, if you’ve got no one to post content, if you’ve got no one to oversee this tone of voice. You’re not just like your tone of voice is wrong and that your copy may not be as effective, but your brand is getting smashed every single day. So when you build out, whether it be a B2B growth marketing team from a digital side of things, or even a marketing agency, often people don’t bring the copywriter. In-house soon enough. And what that does. It takes the media buying. The media buying generalist a way. From what they do best. See. If you’ve got a, a marketing. Assistant or CMO. Who’s really good at looking at the data and making top level decisions. It’s probably not his strong point too. Right at. But it’s not a strong point and not a great business decision too. Outsource your copy to four to five different people or five or four to five different agencies to get that consistent. Right.

So, if you’re going to build out this marketing team, define a content writer and copywriter who can write your ads. Your blog posts. At someone who can be at least trained up in the power of direct response copywriting to generate new leads on demand. It’s like a super crucial one. So you, as you’ve got your, um, your marketing assistant, you’ve got the agencies and have a copywriter work alongside these agencies. What’s also really crucial here is if you have that copywriter, you can negotiate better rights with your agencies and you can help that agency do what it loves to do. By just managing the media. Running the ads to like an inch of perfection. But by providing them the copy, you’ve got to be able to get a discount on their services as well. So there’s a bit of a pro tip for y’all who have never been around the block. When it comes to the next members of your marketing team. This is where it can vary from organization to organization.

We’ve worked with enterprise clients have literally three people in their marketing team. And we’ve worked with small businesses with like 15 people in their marketing team. What we’re now starting to see though, is that. If you want to compete in the demand generation world, which we are pushing into in the B2B SaaS world. Not only do you need a copywriter now, but it’s crucial to have an in-house video editor. Now. I’m a huge advocate for finding people in disadvantaged communities to make this work. So if you are open to employing someone in the Philippines or India or Africa, or in a community that really needs assistance, you can find yourself really high quality video editors that have gone through rigorous training to deliver amazing results.

We use them at Owendenny digital. That valued members of our team, and we love them. But we’ve brought this in-house do you know why? Because we understand how important the amount of content we need to generate is in order for us to remain relevant. Not culturally, but also economically insight. Of this market that we live in. Sir. You’ve got your marketing assistant. Or your CMR. You’ve got your content writer. Or your copywriter. And you’ve got a video editor. You essentially now. Have a full content team. You’ve got a copywriter. A video editor or a video. And if that person you can bring them in house, if you’ve got the money to do such thing, bring them, in-house support them with a video editor and ensure that that video videographer content creator is able to then shoot you. Communicating through exactly what you do. In your business. I think you’re going to be in a really good spot.

So again, you brought the content creation, in-house brought the copywriting. In-house, you’re overseeing everything. It’s at this stage where you need to make a pivotal. Move. So. You’ve got content internally. You’ve got a CMO or you may have a marketing assistant. At this point, this is when you need to decide whether you get yourself a marketing assistant, or a CMR to oversee the whole situation. Once you have this, this CMR can then overlook. Activations can look overlook, networking events can overlook a whole heap of in-person events and then can develop the reporting frameworks to report upwards to the right people. Oh, hang on. My dog’s just visit me. Hello, Zoe. How are you sweetie? Hope you guys don’t mind. Um, This is when we believe the CMO is needed. When you’ve got one or two people on the ground on a, sorry, three or four people on the ground. You need. The CMR to be able to report up. This is where we find it really, really important.

But. It’s at this point, now that you’ve got a four or five person team. And this is when.

You make philosophical choices around hiring. Four. Whether it be manpower or you hire for specialist expertise. Now. There’s no, there’s no denying this fact that. If you are strong with your media buying and you’re doing it internally in your business. That’s great. But if you know, you’re weak, With your media buying internally inside of your business, you’re going to need agency help. Agency help. At. This level when you already have a five or six person strong marketing team. Is crucial. Because of the fact that enables you to get to the next level. Now I did watch very interesting. Uh, video by Alex called mosey recently on how to use marketing agencies. To help your business grow? I would totally recommend everyone. Check that one out. On. On YouTube at some great video, it will help you get a better understanding of how to best use. Agencies to propel your business. Forward into its next level of growth. But that’s where I see it. Get your first marketing assistant. Get a content copywriter. Get your video editor in there. Get agencies to help you out with special niche subjects, whether it be Google tag manager, tracking Google ads, Facebook ads, LinkedIn ads, et cetera, et cetera. Manage your social media internally. So your organic social media. And then fire up your CMO and make that happen.

Look, I hope this has been valuable. It’s been 25 minutes. I didn’t know where this one was going to go, but I really do appreciate the fact that you’ve been here today. And if you need any assistance, if you just want to pick a. If you just want to have a quick chat about what you’re doing when you’re building your B2B marketing team. Hit me up. There’s a link here to book a free 10 minute chat, where we can go through exactly what you’re doing, where you could be improving things and identify whether or not we may even be able to help you out in the future. Once again, thank you so much for tuning into open source growth. You’ve been speaking with Dean or listening. Really. Listening to Dean to any founder and director of Australia’s top ranked SaaS marketing agency. Owen to any digital check us out at Owendenny digital. Talk soon.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


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Building High Performance Software Teams And Companies With Frederic Joye, Co-Founder Of Arcanys

In this episode of Open Source Growth Podcast, Frederic Joye, co-founder of Arcanys, shares a fascinating journey through the software industry. The discussion commences with an introduction to Frederic and his pivotal role in establishing Arcanys. Together, they delve into the profound impact of the software outsourcing industry on the Philippines’ economic landscape.

Notably, the podcast explores how outsourcing BPO services can uplift wages in developing countries, such as the Philippines. An essential facet of their conversation revolves around Arcanis’ triumphant employee culture, fostering both professional development and career progression for its developers.

In summary, this podcast not only offers a glimpse into Frederic Joye’s dynamic career but also underscores the unique and empowering philosophy of Arcanys. It stresses the importance of holistic development, inclusivity, and self-confidence in the professional world.

Lessons Learned

Here are the top 5 lessons learned from the podcast with Frederic Joye:

1) Impact of Outsourcing: The outsourcing of software development can have a significant impact on the economy of countries like the Philippines, contributing to GDP growth and increased wages.

2) Employee-Centric Culture: Fostering a positive employee culture and offering opportunities for personal growth can lead to a low attrition rate and a more engaged workforce.

3) Client Focus and Adaptation: Being adaptable and shifting focus from large corporate clients to entrepreneurs and smaller businesses can be a strategic move for long-term success.

4) Unique Business Model: The podcast showcases a unique business model where payment is received only upon achieving success, emphasizing the importance of helping clients succeed.

5) Diversity and Inclusion: The importance of diversity and inclusion in the workplace is highlighted, and personal experiences underscore the significance of creating an inclusive environment for all employees.

Welcome to open source growth, your number one destination for growing your software company through the power of direct response, advertising, Facebook advertising, and so, so, so much more. And in today’s episode, I have the exceptional gift of having a long standing client. I would consider not just a client, but also a friend of mine on the podcast by the name of Frederick Joy.

Fred is one of the most inspiring co founders I have ever met when it comes to building a software development agency that scales. Fred’s been in the game for over 20 years. He’s been working in IT and operational projects in the finance and software industry in Switzerland. Before arriving at an epiphany with his best friend, Alan to co-found AR Canis in 2010.

After 20 years of experience in the industry, Fred is now leading the worldwide sales and marketing efforts of Arkanis. And they have been recently crowned, and I want you to correct me on this Fred, the number one workplace in the Philippines or like, what is it exactly? Yeah. Number 26 on the list of the best IT BPM workplaces in the Philippines.

Yeah. Number 26. And like, as we all know, if you’re, if you’re building a SaaS product here, We know that everyone is offshoring their shit to the Philippines. So like to rank number 26, like how many it BPM firms are there? Actually, before we start, what is BPM for those not familiar with the chat? So hi, Dean.

Thanks for having me. I’m also super happy to do this with you. Yep. So BPM is business process, um, management. Um, Uh, outsourcing, I think, uh, the way they, they say, um, yeah, so NBPM and yeah, amazing, amazing. And now from the last time you checked, how many firms are offering, you know, outsourced software development in the Philippines?

I don’t know. Um, I don’t know. Like, I know a lot. So if we look at all the BPO, uh, BPOs, as we call them, so some can be IT related. Some others are more like, uh, customer centric or technical support. It’s thousands. I mean, it’s employing, I think. Close to 10 percent of it’s creating 10 percent of the of the GDP of the country.

So it’s a really huge industry. And so it’s millions of jobs, but I don’t have the I don’t have the numbers. Yeah, well, you certainly have some numbers. So what you’re telling me that for every, if you have 10, uh, Philippines people in a room, one out of 10 of them is likely to be working in this situation from based on everyone should.

Developing the same amount of GDP. Yeah. Well, a bit less. Exactly. A bit less because it’s higher paying jobs, right? Compared to the rest of what Filipinos are earning. So all these VPOs, uh, um, are usually paying a bit more, uh, than the regular, uh. Jobs in the Philippines. So I would say it’s slightly less than 10 percent of the population, but it represents about 10 percent of the GDP.

That’s amazing. So what you’re telling me is that like, even like, because in Australia and in the Western world, outsourcing has had a dirty name in the past. They’ve always thought of like, let’s cut costs and stuff like that and pay and, and experience the joys of the arbitrage of Charging a whole lot for a service and then finding someone in a third world country to do it cheaply.

But what you’re telling us is that by engaging BPO services, you’re able to really increase like that average wage for the people in in that country. Is that what’s going on? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So cool. Yeah, yeah. So for example, a software engineer in the Philippines earns at least 10 times the minimum wage, maybe not at least, but close to 10 times the minimum wage in the Philippines, right?

So that, but that’s, that’s the highest paying job, for example, in the Philippines of average is a software engineer. So they are earning a lot more. Then I don’t know the people who are working in supermarkets without mentioning also all the, um, the, the, um, economy that’s. Is not counted, right? Like these small jobs and things like that.

So, yeah, yeah. Wow. That is phenomenal. I think it’s, I think it’s really interesting to see, um, that and, you know, I’m, I’m a huge advocate for supporting, you know, you know, these BPO firms like yourselves in the Philippines, because. At the end of the day, if you’re able to, you know, lift the quality of life for people who have been for a significant amount of time while we disadvantaged, it’s just so empowering to be able to do this.

And I think that if we start, you know, looking at it from a humanitarian perspective as well, but. The work that these BPO firms are doing. It’s just amazing. Like you are literally, you know, you’re really elevating countries and turning them into destinations where business really thrives. And, you know, the wildly educated and widely skilled people can thrive.

In, um, the setup of a great company. And that’s one thing guys, that one thing I’ve noticed about Arcanis when we’ve worked with you guys for the better part of five to six months now, um, is that Arcanis, unlike any other, um, software development company has really nailed. Employee culture, like I don’t know anyone who has got so many team, like talk about your engagement stats like here, Fred, because I know you, you guys have done a huge body of work on this.

Yeah, so, I mean, the main stat that we have is, um, is that we have a low attrition rate in the industry. So I think, uh, it’s well above 20 percent in general, both in Australia and. The Philippines is even higher, actually, for, uh, software engineers. If we look at the BPO in general, it couldn’t, it can go close to 100 percent per year.

Yeah. But that’s not our business, right? But at Arcanis, we’re like, maybe slightly below 10 percent of attrition per year. So we’re At least half of of what other companies are experiencing. And, um, but that’s because we put emphasis on on the, um, I mean, on the culture, as you said, and trying to make sure that people feel really great, uh, working with us.

So it’s not just the perks. It’s, uh, uh, and the salary. It’s also like. We choose who we work with, like our clients. We put as much effort selecting our clients as they put efforts in selecting us. And one of the reasons is we want to make sure that our developers are working on projects that make them grow.

As an engineer, um, and as people, uh, obviously, uh, preferably as well, but, uh, that’s, that’s how we see it, right? If people like what they’re doing, they’re interested, and then they don’t see this as a dead end for their career moving forward, because we know that probably they won’t, you know, stay their whole life at Arkanis.

At least they have some stepped up to, uh, to have a better life after that. And actually a lot of people that leave the company, uh, they don’t. Leave for another company in the Philippines, but they go abroad. Um, they go to Singapore or Australia, New Zealand. Some of them left for Canada as well. And so that’s a huge, I think, stepping stone, uh, for them, for them.

Um, wow. Dennis. Yeah. That’s amazing. And do you hear back from any of those developers that Yeah. Decide to, to head off to Canada or Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, so there’s people like in, in, in Singapore, if I’m traveling, there’s one I became really good friends with. So I would have, you know, dinner with them or, uh, when I’m in Australia, visit my clients from New Zealand that I have a few that are like, Hey, you’re around Fred, you know?

I don’t always have the time to see them, but, uh, yeah, they reach out and, you know, because they also keep their friends at Arcani. So we are kind of updated, Alan and I, with what’s going on with other people, um, that we had been working with in the past. So, yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s so cool. And that’s so cool.

Like, imagine that as a, as a young developer, you get a job at Arcanis, you develop a great set of skills. You, you work on tip of the spear projects with the biggest names in the Australian SAS landscape, and also some of these massive names around the globe. Like, talk about some of the global clients you’re working with.

Like, what are a few of the names? I keep on forgetting, like, is it John here and a few other big, sorry. Who are the big players that you’re currently working with? We’ve worked, uh, yeah, with some big, big companies like GE or, or, um, or Honda or, uh, what else? Uh, L’Oreal. But, so that was, that was in the, in the past.

We, we finished. Projects with them. Um, now we’re mostly looking at working with, you know, like, uh, entrepreneurs or small to medium businesses that where we can really have more of an impact. I mean, because we are impact driven where we want to also give purpose to our employees and not just be numbers in teams, right?

And so that’s why we really want to work with companies that are medium. Some of them are, are later scale ups if you want. So it’s still sizable enough so they can have a sizable team with us, but that they’re still part of the, like the, uh, a team, um, that’s a human size as well. And I think that’s helps them identify themselves to the companies they’re working with.

And, um, just, it’s just. Nicer to work in a smaller business than just a huge, uh, corporation. That’s maybe a little less personal, but, um, you know, it’s still interesting to work with. Yeah. There’s a real sweet spot with, you know, being in the services businesses, like with the businesses that you support and you serve, you know, I’ve noticed that with my own marketing team and the clients that we work with, when it’s just like a single marketing person in the company, or you’re working directly with the founder often.

It can be a little us and them, but when you’re part of like a fabric of a marketing team and you come in there and you support, whether it’s from an advisory perspective as a CMO, or if you’re just providing them with a traffic service, it’s just so much more fulfilling. And I’m sure that’s how your developers feel because from the sounds of things with a lot of the clients that you work with.

And obviously, I know, because I help you with a lot of this stuff too, right? Is that you want these developers to come in like 2 or 3 developers to be inserted as amongst the fabric of an already already. Strong tech team, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It’s so cool. Like, so like, cause here’s the thing guys to get to, like, to be qualified as a great place to work in the Philippines.

Like you say 26 or 27, it may not sound that impressive, but it’s damn right. Impressive. Like the amount of work that. Arcanist has had to go through to get to that stage. Actually. That’s an interesting thing we could talk about. How did you arrive at winning or placing in that award? Like that’s, that’s impressive.

How did you get there? What, what, what, um, So to get placed there, it wasn’t that hard. We just sent a survey to, to the employees and they, they responded to the, so it’s anonymous and it’s handled by this work. Right. And, uh, actually, uh, I have, uh, uh, so that’s the number 26 in the Philippines. Let’s go. So, um, yeah, so it’s so we send a survey and then they responded to, I don’t know how many questions and, um, and then it’s compared to other companies that, uh, that have responded.

And then they rank you based on, I mean, the answers, right? So they covers different topics and, um. And we actually received the results so we can keep on improving. But, uh, so that’s kind of like the easy part is sending a survey and then having people, uh, uh, respond to it. But it took years, uh, for us to really, uh, build that culture.

And we still doing it right. We, we try to improve, uh, every year on, on, on things. So it started small. ’cause when we started like, uh, 13 years ago, we didn’t have the means that we. And today we basically started with zero clients. Yeah, let’s, let’s get to it. Let’s start, hang on, hang on, before we even go there.

So you will, let’s, let’s even go a step back before you even thought about partnering with Alan and all the crazy stuff. Like, so let’s talk about, cause you would have been in your early twenties when you were in the banking world, right? Yeah. Uh, yeah, I started in insurance actually. So I did really the insurance guy.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, but I didn’t sell insurance, but I’m an insurance guy. Um, and, uh, actually before starting Arcanis, I never sold anything. Uh, not even my used phones, but, um, but, uh, so yeah, I was in my, Okay. I was very bad, uh, in school and, um, I tried university and, uh, I was also very bad. So at some point my parents kicked me out and said, Hey, Fred, how about you, you know, uh, try to get a life and do something.

Uh, so, so then I got an internship in an insurance company after applying to a hundred. Companies are so, and then, uh, yeah, well, but then I got, I got, uh, helped by, um, by a friend of mine who knew the chairman of the company. So I have no, uh, you know, my, my, my resume had absolutely nothing for me. Uh, but, uh, so I got to, I got this internship and, um, uh, which was supposed to be for one year for me to be able to join, uh, Uh, the university again, because I got kicked out from one, um, faculty, but I wanted to join another one.

And this one required me to have at least one year of professional experience. So I did three, four months of like, wherever they put me, cause they didn’t really know where to put me actually. Um, it’s like, Oh, the boss is telling you to take this one and then just do whatever, you know? So, um, I got put in a team where I was really interested, where we had to solve.

Process issues for one of the departments and the department I was in was the department of internal outsourcing. If you want, if you have, if any department had problems, they would call in these people to actually. Uh, do business process outsourcing to this department with people to do it. So I got put in, in one of these teams, um, and I got pretty fascinated by, by what we had to do.

So without knowing it, I took the lead. Of that team of, I don’t know, four or five people, um, uh, and, um, and then three months after, four months after my boss came to me and he’s like, um, Fred, we can’t have a trainee being a manager. That’s not okay. And I was like, oh my God, I’m going to get fired or something, you know, and they’re like, so how about, um, we give you an actual job and you become an employee.

And so, of course, I was super happy. And so that’s how it started. I worked at that company for five years. Uh, so I did all these outsourcing kind of things. Yeah. Um, and then I also, um, became the deputy. Manager of this department after five years with 120 people or something like that to, uh, to look after.

And I was doing, um, I was working a lot with, um, providers from. Different kinds of I. T. Uh, non I. T. providers because I was, uh, purchasing, um, head of, uh, I mean, not head, but like, uh, one of the purchasers for the company and also, so dealing with all the contracts and, um, uh, our RFQs and, and things like that.

Plus, I got also involved in, um, a migration. Project of their, um, software that was running on mainframes. So, and then there, we hired a consulting group, um, to, to, I mean, to do the work. And so I was involved in these projects as a young, um, I mean, young professional. I was, I don’t know, until 2025. Uh, I worked until 20.

Okay. Five or 26 years old at this company. Um, and so at the same time, I kept on studying to get my, my bachelor’s degree. Um, what was your bachelor’s degree? And out of curiosity, business administration and entrepreneurship. And so that was like during the five, first five years of my career, then I moved, um, onto doing the same thing as a.

Uh, uh, in purchasing and also in, in outsourcing, outsourcing inside the company. So we had like, uh, one of the internal services kind of, uh, a department in a private bank. Um, I did this for about 18 months. Um, and, um. I, uh, uh, I had to leave because it was, it was too boring for me. Like, there were too many, you know, limitations and stuff like that.

So, cause like, let me just, let’s just, just, just to unpack this just so, you know, because at the end of the day, right, there’s a lot of color. In one’s life before they arrive at starting their own company. And if you go from insurance, which is quite highly regulated, and then you push across to banking, which is quite highly regulated, one was, was an exhilarating experience where you picked up this fascination.

With business processes and, you know, that the runnings, the internal runnings of a business and how they go about in sourcing and outsourcing. Like, I don’t it’s really cool. Yeah, I think it’s, um,

look, I don’t, I don’t know. Um, I’ve, I’m always, I was always interested with strategy and stuff like that. And, uh. Um, the, the first job, the insourcing part led me also to participate in a project where we analyzed every single process of the entire company for, um, everything that was related to signing an insurance contract to a claim.

And stuff like it’s all the business thing. That’s what an insurance is, is made up. So we went in all the agencies, not all of them, but a lot of the agencies throughout the country. Uh, interviewed people, measured exactly what they did. And so we mapped with, uh, with, uh, it was a McKinsey, um, um, consultant and an internal consultant with this with, and that’s from these people.

I learned most of the organizational stuff and the analysis and things like that. And so we had this map of the entire processes of the company and we knew down to the second, how much time every task would take. So that’s our mission that we were, uh, meant to, to perform. Right. And so, um, and the second thing that they didn’t tell us when we started is, okay, now you map everything.

So then we had the calculation of how many per, uh, agency or, or branch and per year and like, and so, Okay. We have all the load. We know exactly what people do. And then he’s like, okay, so given the number of people, the amount of work that’s done, how can we fire 20, 20 percent of the people there? Oh,

yes. And then so every year, every 6 months, I had to crunch. Because the one of the, uh, consultants got fired. And so I had to crunch all these data by myself. Um, every 6 months, so it took me 2 months to crunch all the data, but I knew everything what was happening everywhere. Um, and so it, it also kind of, um, taught me a lot because everybody was afraid talking to me.

Because I was the messenger, I mean, the bad messenger, not to fire people, but I was the spy or like the spy in the company, knowing everything that people did, uh, it would give me all the numbers. So I knew exactly where people were too many and then, uh, where we could also have efficiency gains. Um, and, uh.

Because all of these decisions were strategic as well, uh, then I got on onto, uh, the board of that company as a, as an executive, like I was 25 years old. People said no one had ever been this young at this thing. And then of course, a lot of people were talking shit about me because they knew I knew the chairman.

So everybody thought it was because I knew the chairman. Um, but anyway, so there was, uh, there were lots of stories, but it was, I got. So obsessed actually, uh, with that. And I think a lot of people probably like you with marketing at some point, uh, at some point in your life, and that’s how you build your career.

You become obsessed with something. So with, for me, I was obsessed about efficiency. I was obsessed about, uh, making things, uh, work better in everything I did. So it was the processes of the company. It was the purchasing part of things. It was. Uh, uh, yeah, any project that was given to me, I was trying to make it easier and and more efficient.

So, and then when I went, like, what an amazing proving ground to build a wildly successful, um, software. Outsourcing firm like yourselves are like that. That must that experience must have paid spades for you now. Yeah, I guess. I mean, um, uh, I guess. I mean, I can’t always relate exactly what I had learned there to me.

I am right. But, uh, yeah, I guess I think it’s. Maybe what attracted, besides our friendship, Alan to ask me if I could work with him. Yep. Um, because, uh, I visited him in 2008 in Hong Kong. I was bored in my, in Switzerland. I knew, I always knew I wanted to leave. And, uh, uh, but I never had the opportunity to, to do something entrepreneurial before that.

And so when he asked me like, Hey, I’m setting up a new business, uh, you want to come work with me and knowing that he had exited his previous business for a couple of hundreds of millions of dollars, um, these guys asking me to work with him. Uh, I can’t refuse. Like, I mean, he’s, you know, uh, why would I refuse?

And it was the second time he asked me actually at the first time I said no. Um. And I was like, for years, I regretted it. I’m like, Oh fuck. I said no to these guy. I could do, I have lived an even more incredible experience. Um, and so when he offered me a second time and it’s like, dude, I’m starting these small business and e commerce thing in video games, I don’t have much money.

You know, because we’re not making money in that business, so I can pay you a little bit, uh, and then I didn’t even ask what I was going to do. I’m like, yeah, just help me with the visa. And, uh, and 3 months later, I had my luggage. I was in Hong Kong. I had sold everything I had, uh, in Switzerland. And then, uh, I landed in Hong Kong and that’s what we worked on for the next 18 months.

I would say. Well, and that’s when we. Decided to move parts of the, I mean, the operations that we had in Hong Kong. So customer service people and a bunch of, we had a bunch of developers in India. We, we moved to the Philippines, uh, cause of the skills, the English was a lot better than in Hong Kong and the cost.

Was also, uh, lower than what we had in Hong Kong. So the value for money was much better. So we didn’t go there for charitable reasons and because we wanted to change the world and stuff like that. We just had a business we needed to run and we had to service our clients better with the money that we had available.

Right. So, but then. We discovered the beauty of the Philippines and, and the people and so on, and that e commerce business wasn’t doing so well. So, at some point, so what were you selling out of curiosity? Oh, we were selling, okay. Selling and buying game accounts for World of Warcraft, um, stuff like that.

It was a bit of a gray area, right? But then the industry changed because the game editors were like, hey, why don’t we capture. That for ourselves, instead of having a third parties doing it. Right. So then we kind of died, um, slowly. Uh, and at some point I told that I’m doing, um, I’m taking money from you as my salary, which was not much, but I was still taking some money out of this to live because I didn’t have much money.

And I was feeling bad because I’m like, I’m not delivering much value because the business is dying. Um, and I didn’t see this carrying on. So I was at some point, I was like, so what do I just, what do I do? Do I go back to Switzerland, uh, you know, and, and call it quits, you know? And so that was not really an option I wanted to follow.

And then the amazing story of Arcanis. Here we go. Here we go. I’m, I’m, I’m exaggerating because It just happened over a pizza. So there was no, there was no business plan, no nothing. Um, so I was like, Hey, so what do we do? You know, business is not going great. We had a bunch of developers that we had hired for ourselves.

And to maintain the e commerce platform. And then we had another bunch of friends, uh, devs.

Um, so it was maybe one or two or something like that or like, what’s up with devs? Like, yeah, because at the time we had the dot net store fronts for the e commerce stuff and our partners were, I think, using dot net guys or maybe Java guys. I can’t remember. Yeah, but, uh, so we had this and I was like, so what do we do?

And Alan was like, uh. I don’t know. And we came. I don’t know if it’s him or me. I can’t remember. But we like, so how about we do better outsourcing? Because we had been clients of outsourcing companies. It was always a pretty shitty experience from what we had. Um, so we’re like, We know how to hire devs. Oh, there’s plenty of devs in the Philippines.

They’re pretty good. Um, why don’t we do this? You know, and, uh, so basically, yeah, so basically what you’re saying is you, you guys didn’t quite get where you want it with e com, but what you figured out in the process was how to hire devs effectively and yeah, I think people in general. Oh yeah, absolutely.

And. Yeah. This is where I’m really curious because I think this is where a lot of people are going to be interested on this episode. Can you unpack your experiences working with these outsourcing companies? And what did you learn through those processes? Like what, what, what were you, what, what were you so frustrated about when you were going through it?

Because obviously you were trying to build the store. You were trying to hire devs. You’ve been burned, blah, blah, blah. Just tell me about that. Well, I think the outsourcing industry has evolved a lot over the years. But 13 years ago, it was mostly Indian companies who were kind of not very honest in the way they were doing stuff because they were hiring people.

And then, uh, when you, when you reach out to them, like, Hey, I need to this, whatever. And they would play place. They’re 18 for you for about a month. You know, like when you hire the guys, super nice, you have a neat ish and, uh, uh, someone else. And then suddenly the same neat ish and whatever else, suddenly their quality would drop one day.

Uh, but he’s still the same person. You’d never see them on camera. Yeah. Uh, you just talk to them through a chat and stuff, and then actually what they were doing is they would change people all the time without telling you and and charging you, I mean, ongoing more money, of course, over the years. And they were delivering a really shitty, uh, outsourcing experience.

Um, the management practices were probably not as elaborated as today. Uh, remote work was, uh, maybe just 10 years old, you know, and so it was an awesome, uh, uh, industry. And, um, and also there were so many cultural differences, you know, like, uh, so we were in train for that. We. Just try to do whatever we were so inexperienced with, with these guys at this level.

When, when we, when we were, I was working with the insurance industry, for example, we had like hundreds of people who are working for us. They were on site in Switzerland, probably costing tens of thousands of bucks a month. But it was super high level things for high level companies, but we’re not fortune 500 and stuff like that.

So I had seen how it was well managed. I had seen how it was badly managed and the same thing with outsourcing in China and India and stuff. So we’re like, Oh, fuck that. We, we want to make this, you know, but a lot better. We wanted, we called it between us outsourcing 2. 0, you know, like, uh, Um, and that’s what we tried to do, but we kind of sucked at the start, like, uh, we were pretty bad.

Um, don’t we? Like, I think that’s what’s really, what’s cool though, right? Is the fact that you can acknowledge that you sucked at the start, but then you’ve gotten to a point where you’re clearly one of the best in the entire, like in the mecca of outsourcing. So like, you know, No, no, but think of it this way, right?

Like I know, I’ve seen the Clutch reviews, like they’re, they’re gnarly for Arcanis, like, and I, like, like, wasn’t it, I think you were ranked number one in Clutch or there was a, few different, um, there was a few different, um, benchmarks and scorecards that I’ve seen over the years for Arcanis and it’s been number one.

In 2019, in 2021, in 2022, I think it was only this year that you dropped off like the number one. I didn’t ask reviews for, for my clients for a while. And, and, uh, And so we dropped in the rankings because we didn’t take care of that. And, uh, we’re fixing this. Uh, but yeah, I mean, uh, yeah, our clients are happy.

We have an NPS score of like 81 or something. And so I was kind of surprised when I was measuring the stuff. But so, yeah, I, I think we’re, I mean, I don’t know if we’re the best, but our clients are happy and that’s, you know, what matters. Um, yeah, 100%. I think that’s the only way you can measure. If you are the best or not, if you, if, if your clients are speaking highly of you, are you receiving referrals?

What sort of doors are they opening for you? That’s when you know, you’re doing amazing things as a services business. So after experiencing, you know, the, the highs and lows of working. Um, you know, with, um, you know, these Indian outsourcing companies and obviously Allen’s worked with Chinese and, you know, there’s all different outsourcing companies.

You arrived at the Philippines and you thought, hang on, these people are magnificent. This is a great work culture. We could, we could start up Arcanis. We could do this really, really well. And you began at Arcanis with BPO work. Was it always? Software though, because I, I have a funny, I have a funny feeling.

Also, everyone I’ve been looking at the Google AdWords account that it wasn’t just, um, yeah, it wasn’t just software dev like you’ve tried a few things. Yeah, we, we did customer service or technical service stuff because we had all these people from the, uh, from the e commerce stuff. We had a lot like 35 or 40.

Uh, customer service agents and as the business of, uh, it was called toon store was going down. We didn’t want to fire people. We wanted to try to find them, you know, new projects and stuff. So we, we, um, but. What we realized is, uh, uh, uh, to grow a business with, with, uh, customer service, it’s harder, uh, if you like a boutique kind of stuff, if you want to do mass stuff, like, you know, uh, with thousands of people, then you can grow that and it’s dirt cheap and it’s just churn.

But if you want to create a great work culture, uh, with, you know, people who stay and, and, um. Uh, uh, something where it’s not like thousands of people that you’re just who are just numbers, then software development was, was better because the margins are higher as well and allows us to create a better, better company that is maybe lasting longer and, uh, is more.

It’s it’s more knowledge involved. There’s more technology because all the customer stuff. Okay. There’s been years. They’re saying, oh, is going to take the jobs and stuff, but I think it’s really coming now for software engineers. Yes, I will, uh, probably, uh, increase the productivity of people a lot. It might reduce a little bit the demand, but.

We still need to have people who are trained as engineers to talk to computers to understand what code is, uh, and so on. It’s not like you can just take someone off the street and give them chat GPT and then build me a software, right? That’s not how it works. That would be awesome for all those budding software founders.

But sadly, there is a barrier to entry. There is. There is right. And, uh, and, and, and, and like, I think that’s something that we’re all going to have to grapple with with AI that, you know, it’s a, I does your leg work, but it doesn’t do your, your strategy. It doesn’t develop your plan to develop your products.

It’s going to help. Oh, it helps a lot write questions and I use it every day, and I think it’s super useful to be smarter. Yeah. But it’s not gonna do the work for you. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And I guess like now we talk about like ANA 2.0 or outsourcing 2.0. When you had that conversation with Alan that night over a pizza and a beer, what, what did you strive to create?

When you built out Arcana, it’s like, obviously a revenue stream that worked. Let’s not, let’s not joke about that. What did you, what did you really want to create? Like, what, what were you, what were you thinking at that moment? So the 1st thing I think we talked about, uh, maybe that night or maybe later, I don’t know, but I think.

Our dream was to create a technology company in a way. Um, and so the way to do this for us was to create, uh, Arcanis. And then pretty quickly, it became, okay, we have devs. Um, we help companies build their products and stuff like that, and down the road, because this is not the technology company per se, we create, uh, we created, uh, first Arcanis Labs that now is Arcanis Ventures, where we invest in startups that we find.

Interesting, both in the team that’s running them, uh, and the product or the service they’re selling, um, and, and their culture and their values. Right? And so for us, that’s how we kind of create or own partially, um, uh, technology companies that we fuel because we fuel the companies with our team members, um, uh, every year.

Right? So, uh, that’s kind of like, uh, indirect way of, of, Okay. Of creating a technology company. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s almost like. We wanted to create a tech company by owning 10 percent of 10 other companies. You know what I mean? And that’s that’s what’s so cool about your unique model. And I think for those who are listening today, and if they, if you are in the process of considering some form of dedicated, um, A dedicated development team, or if you’re looking for a software developers, or if you’re looking to scale your product, one of the things which is unique about Arcanis is their ventures arm, which has some of the best performing small to medium size, like tech startups across the world, mostly Australia.

Are most of your investments in the Australian market? Uh, well, yeah, I mean, maybe half of them, and then the rest is in Europe or Switzerland. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I guess what this tells you about the way Fred operates, guys, is that with the way you do things, Fred, it’s so obvious that you can only make Arcanist Ventures work.

If and only if your tech team has their shit together, you know, and what’s more compelling about this as well is like, if you’re a founder and you’re looking for investment, and then you have someone like Fred, knock on your door and go, Hey, I know you’re looking for investment. You’re going to be using the money to build your product instead of money for, um, money to pay for someone to do the development.

We can provide our. Tip of the spear developers to work inside your business. Now, a lot of developers, when they first hear that we’ll say not developers, a lot of SAS founders, when they first hear that, they think, oh, there’s some fill my team with shitty developers, but that’s not a way you would get a return on your money.

Is it like you need to actually have your very best team members in the, in, in the startups, which you’ve got a deep. Invested interested. Otherwise, you’re not going to get any money back. Yeah, because it’s 100 percent the test fee, right? If, if we suck, we don’t get paid and we lose our money that we could put our devs, uh, elsewhere and being paid for that, right?

So we do this when we, when we believe in the team, we do this when we know we can actually make a difference for that company. Cause if we can’t make a difference, then There’s no reason for us to come in. Um, and, and so, yeah, uh, we only get paid if we succeed, right? And because it’s a significant part of our business, um, we, we want to make sure that, uh, that we, we succeed.

We didn’t get paid yet so much in terms of the exits. We did because it’s only been five years or six years that we. Slowly started doing this, and it has been accelerating, uh, recently. So we had one exit that was a good return on the on the small duration that we that we had. But we are in on in for the long run.

We’re not like looking at making a quick, quick exit. After one year and say, Hey, we want our money back and stuff like that. So we, we want to help build a business as an investment. We want to help companies raise more money at a higher valuation because they are doing stuff that’s working and creating products that people love and, uh, getting more customers, maybe more investment and things like that.

And we might even keep on investing. Uh, in succeeding rounds if we believe in that story and double down, right? Um, and in some cases, um, Founders just start paying our team instead of getting it for free Uh, I mean not for free. It’s for equity, but not I mean easing the cash flow i’d say um, and and then become, um, you know, uh clients and great partners that we I mean keep on helping just uh, Anyone else we’re working with?

Yeah, absolutely and Like, I just want to touch base on the size of your team, because I think like any professional services business, like often businesses try to scale. They go from like a 1 person show, and then they turn into like a 3 person show, and then it’s unmanageable. And then they try and go to an 8 and they shrink and all that sort of crazy stuff.

And this could be a lot like a software team in many sense, because it’s a professional service happening internally inside of an organization. How many developers do you have inside the Arcanist Fabric now? Total number? 280 maybe, something like that. Okay, so I think what’s evident here is that you’ve got 280 developers and they’re all happy and they’re all engaged and they’re all moving along.

99 percent based on the survey, something like that. 99 percent is practically all the developers. It’s not always. It’s pretty good. It’s pretty good. I want to know how in the world did you scale like that and keep everybody engaged and involved? Because I’m sure there’s going to be a technical founder here wanting to know.

It’s like, how did you build such a big software team? This is amazing. Like, how did you do it? How do things not slip through the cracks? Well, uh, the first thing is. Uh, if you, if you look at the day to day stuff, it’s mostly our clients managing their own team. Right? So, um, good. Right. So, uh, that’s the thing.

And we take care of all the HR stuff. So, all the feedback, the coaching, the training, obviously the hiring and all that stuff. We, we, we do that, but the day to day tasks and, uh, the project itself is mostly managed by, uh, our clients. We have some clients for which. We have senior European, uh, architects who are doing the CTO if you want for them, but it’s like maybe 20, 10, 20 percent of the projects that we have.

The rest is managed by the client. So it kind of makes our scaling a little bit easier. Um, uh, because, because of that, right? So, um, but we had to change a few times the structure of, of the management if you want when, uh, as you said, there were stages, right? And so we went through, I don’t know, three, four.

Stages of growth, uh, where we kind of had to stop for a sec, regroup, uh, rearrange how the management was done and then, okay, now we can keep on growing ’cause we’ve removed the, uh, the paints and so yeah. The stage we’re at now is the operations are really running smoothly, but it’s all the support functions that we had.

Um, really under invested in, uh, any at many levels. So accounting is a lot. People are working too, too much. So we have to, uh, help them, um, even sales and marketing. Um, I mean, in sales, I’ve been alone for many, many years. I mean, until, uh, this year. So now we’ve hired another person do that. Um, in, in the marketing.

We also, well. grew and then we’re working with you and another agency as well that, uh, help us like do a lot more stuff that we, that we have been able to do, um, just by ourselves in, in the past. So that’s what we’ve been investing in a lot in the last, uh, uh, year, uh, in the, yeah, eight, nine months. Um, yeah, right.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it has been, it has been really interesting to see. How things have, you know, evolved over the past 6 months with you guys, you know, um, you know, when we got involved, we never saw, you know, any form of demand generation or lead generation happen off Facebook. Like, I’ve never been targeted by an ad.

The first time I heard of you guys, despite like this, the weight the Arcanis name has in the Philippines BPO circuit, um, you never heard of it in Australia. You jump on the website, you think, Oh, who are these people? But it was only until. You know, you got in contact with me and then we started peeling back the layers on how magnificent Arcanis is.

Made me realize, oh shit, like this is an incredible organization that, you know, values not only, you know, doing amazing work for great clients, but it’s one of these businesses that, you know, thinks about the holistic development of the individual. Two. And I think Fred, like, if you want to feel free to talk about a little thing you’ve created on your Arkanis campus, which I know you’re very proud about.

So you can talk to us all about Fred. Everybody has actually created a CrossFit gym for all the Arkanite employees on the campus. And I think this is because of Fred’s love of health and fitness and all that sort of jazz. So. Give us a bit of a background into the health and fitness journey and how you believe, you know, embedding this culture of like company sports and activities and all that sort of stuff.

Ends up creating amazing workplace results. Yeah. So besides the processes, uh, there’s another, um, obsession that, uh, I have is that with CrossFit, right? So, and, um, in the games. I know I started way too late for that stuff. And I don’t, I wish I could spend like five hours in the gym every day, but I can’t.

Um, uh, but so we, we’ve created a CrossFit, uh, affiliate, affiliated CrossFit gym, uh, in St. Lou for. For ourselves, for our employees and soon for the public. So we just opened like two weeks ago for our employees. We’re learning how to run the classes and stuff. We’ve hired two senior coaches from France that we’ve relocated to the Philippines.

We’ve got a really, one of the fittest girls in the Philippines, uh, last year that has joined us. So she’s also a great athlete. And, um, this has started really as a. Something as a personal journey, right? When I was younger and like plenty of issues and and so sports really helped me, uh, with that. And so that’s why I put such an emphasis on on health and fitness as a way to to blossom as a person to grow as a person and and also You know, teaching you good values and things like that, especially in CrossFit, because it’s kind of team based, although it’s not, but you do this, you’re in this together.

And I think it creates great friendships and things like that. So I started. With health and fitness. And then, uh, the first person I tried to convince, uh, was Alan because it was pretty unhealthy when I joined him in Hong Kong, but he didn’t listen to me for many years, um, trying to avoid going to gym and telling me all the reasons why he shouldn’t work out more than twice a week or whatever.

Um, and then also nutrition because I was obese. I, uh, when I was younger, I tried to also learn about. You know, proper nutrition. I’m not perfect, but, um, uh, I’ve tried and, and so I, I saw the effect of myself and then I started bringing this in the company because in the Philippines, people are pretty unhealthy.

They don’t move much. They really like crappy stuff. They didn’t bother me. Uh, it bothers me to see people wasting their potential and their health by not knowing. And so we created these Wednesday classes where I would nag people with stuff, with information about health, about fitness, trying to move.

And then so you can go only so far when you start telling stuff to people and how to do things, you have to show them, right? And so I brought a bunch of people. In Spartan races with me, uh, and and so I think that’s what really started because a bunch of people started liking it and the goal was to beat Fred, you know?

Um, and so the first few ones, they didn’t, they weren’t able to to beat me. Thanks. Uh, they didn’t beat me the first time, but after that they improved and now probably, uh, they’re like a crap ton faster than I am in running or, or better at CrossFit or whatever, but, um, but it started and then, and then it, you know, people liked it and then they, um.

Then they kept going on. And then the last thing that we did with Alan was, uh, so first we created a kitchen in the office trying to serve healthy meals so people, it’s free and then they eat better and, uh, just showing them, you know, like it’s healthy food is not disgusting. It can be really nice. So we had an Australian chef actually, uh, doing the menu and, uh, Insane.

Yeah, because it was… Guy owning a restaurant, we became friends. And then, uh, then when we started the kitchen, we’re like, Hey, Steve, why don’t you help us? Um, and, um, uh, yeah, and so the food and then we started doing like yoga and Zumba yoga classes in the office and recently after traveling a lot around the world, um, and going to various CrossFit boxes.

Every time we came back here, I’m like, yeah. I think we could do something to improve the landscape of CrossFit in Cebu. Wow. And so I tried to convince Alan about this. Um, and very quickly we were like, okay, let’s do this. Uh, let’s, let’s start building a place. So we had to find a place and build it. And, uh, now we’re open.

How long did it take you to get Alan off the couch and into a CrossFit gym? Um, so in Hong Kong, I started bringing him to fitness first. A few times, uh, but he didn’t like it and I understand why the gym is, you know, can be intimidating and it’s not that fun, you know, it’s just working, um, but I have a good friend who, whom I, I, I met in Bali years ago and, um, and he got into CrossFit and he was, I saw the journey he had and how he’s been transformed, like physically, as well.

Um, and one day he’s like, Hey, one of the coaches in Bali, uh, moved to the Philippines. Go to that box and try it out because I’ve been telling you to try it out for years. And I was scared because CrossFit has a bad reputation, which is not true, but that’s what it is. And I don’t want to get injured and stuff.

So I didn’t go. And finally I went, I found it made, it was hard, but I’m like, Holy crap, that’s, that’s it. You know, cause I was bored at the gym. I needed something else. Yep. And I went once or twice and then I told Alan, I think you should try it out. And then he came and I think almost immediately he is like, okay, that’s it.

That’s what I’m gonna do. what? It only took him one class. And then, uh, we both obsessed with CrossFit and that’s how we. Yeah. And he’s better than me in many aspects in CrossFit now because he’s so dedicated and, and, uh, he’s super into it. So that is actually so funny. I didn’t realize it was only one class.

So it, it’s often, it’s, it’s really a case of like your own internal product market fit. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s just like, Oh, you come to the, come to, you know, come to the gym, come for a run. Let’s go bike riding. Let’s go swimming. Let’s go this. And then all of a sudden, cross country cross country skiing becomes their new addiction.

And yeah, I think the reason for Alan and also me is because there’s constant learning and you’re pushing your boundaries all the time. And so for him, I, I, he never told me that, but I’m sure it’s that he’s like, he realized that I’m going to learn. New things my whole life doing CrossFit because it’s so complex and but you also can measure it and there’s a lot of strategy in there as well.

So I think it’s typically made for him like he loves it and, uh, um, he’s strategizing all the time is calculating everything when I’m asking, I’m like, Oh, it’s like a calculation and stuff and you’re like, Oh, yeah. Okay. Of course. Yeah. Uh, so, uh, yeah, that’s the thing for him. There’s math, you know, there’s, uh, there’s, uh, uh, learning.

And so that’s for, uh, um, Well, I can’t believe that. That’s amazing. So like, I think you would have to be the only BPO with their own dedicated CrossFit gym in the Philippines. That has to be, I think that’s something you can claim. Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, uh, we’re probably not the only ones who have a gym or something like of that sort, but a CrossFit for sure.

Yeah, CrossFit. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty amazing. Like the way you look at like the holistic development of the individual. At Arcanis, and I think it’s so cool to see that, you know, developers come to you, not completely junior, because again, you’ve got a policy that you really want tip of the spear developers inside your organization.

They come in as, you know, really quality, mid level developers. They become someone great. And, you know, at the end of their journey, they don’t start out, um, as. No, they don’t end up as just a better developer. They end up as a better person. They, they understand nutrition, sleep. They understand diet. They understand working out.

They may leave Arcanis. They then move to greener pastures across in Western countries and pick up amazing job opportunities. Like, how does that feel? Like, you’re really making a difference, Fred, if you think of it that way. Well, we, I mean, we, we don’t, I don’t know, we, as Swiss people, I don’t know how it is in other countries, but we’re very, you know, we, we come from a reformed or protestant kind of a background and, um, it’s very Um, I don’t know how to say it.

It’s very sober. So it’s about doing stuff working. We don’t celebrate much. We should do that more. I mean, I think we’re not good at that. Um, and we just do stuff we believe in. And, uh, it’s true. It’s nice when you see people, uh, uh, you know, growing and stuff like that. And there’s a bunch of people that We see them change quite a lot and it’s impressive and it’s not pride because I’m just happy for them, you know, and, and, and so, uh, uh, yeah, that’s, that’s pretty much it.

There’s 1 area where we know we have to improve his mental health, um, and we’ve seen these during covid and, uh, we can’t do everything at the same time, but that’s kind of the next, um, I think the next chapter. For us is to, um, is to at least for me on the radar is to help, uh, more with, uh, mental health.

Yeah, it’s a, it is a tough one. You know, um, I think professional services businesses, um, and it’s not just, uh, you know, dedicated, um, outsourcing shops, like yourself, like it’s, it’s like the accountants of the world, anyone that’s in B2B, um, professional services, it is tough because there’s like, there’s huge, there’s huge deadlines.

Yeah. Um, you know, the stakes are high a lot of the time. Um, so many competing priorities, many clients wanting your attention at any given time. Like, it’s and, you know, I think mental health is 1 of those things that it’s, it’s getting big in Australia. I’m not sure what it’s like in the Philippines or in in Switzerland or any of those other countries, but, you know, it’s, it’s really.

Gaining momentum. And, you know, the more we know about it, the better it’s going to be for people to really enjoy work. Um, yeah. Have you got any initiatives on the cards that you’re planning to roll out with Arcanis at this point? So we started in June working a lot more on the diversity and inclusion, uh, policies and stuff like that because we know we can do that better and that was triggered by an article that I’ve been invited to write in Tatler about my own experience as a part of the LGBT community and talk about it.

My journey and I’m like, okay, it’s the month of June. I’m talking about this. Um, and, and I just reflected on my journey and I’m like, oh, shit, I wish you’d do something.

Because I’ve been lucky to be able to go through that and come out of this, uh, because it was not always easy. Right? Okay, and so why don’t we try to offer these to people like they feel comfortable at work because when I started working, I was in the closet. I was afraid. You know, I didn’t know how people would judge me and stuff, especially in Switzerland, which was pretty conservative, especially in the financial services industry.

Um, so, uh, I don’t want people, um, at our counties to experience the same stuff. I want them to come as they are at work, um, and just be themselves, you know, and, and not be afraid. And, and, um. Because if one thing goes well, then the other goes well, you know, it’s this virtuous circle. And so we want to try to ignite that spark if you want.

And so whether it could be by sports, doing sports, or which gives a lot of confidence, or it could be yeah, Uh, feeling, you know, a part of something or feeling like you can bring yourself completely at work and with your team members that you’re safe. And so that’s kind of like, uh, I think that’s kind of like the next thing I’m, I want to do.

Yeah, man, like, that’s a real brave step and, you know, good on you for, for being a champion of diversity and inclusion in your business, because that is such a tough gig. You know, like, I can only say this coming from being, um, a heterosexual male, um, obviously with a beautiful wife who works inside the agency who you’ve met, luckily, Fred, and I’m a blessed man, but, you know, like your journey, um, and being, you know, as you said, like, closeted in the financial services, which is very much a bro culture in many In many ways and able to wrestle with that.

And now, obviously, you’ve been able to build this incredible, like, wildly successful software development business. And, you know, now you’ve got that opportunity in that position of privilege and responsibility to really champion for people to be themselves at work and be comfortable and knowing that they’re going to be accepted being themselves at work.

Like, wow, it’s. It’s that’s crazy. So, wow. I don’t even know where to, I don’t even know where to go on, on this topic. Like, I don’t know. I I’m here, I’m here for a marketing and business podcast, man. I know, but it’s been great. You know, I, so many things I didn’t expect talking about. So you, you, I think you ask great questions and, uh, uh, so yeah, uh, reflecting on what I said is like, actually you don’t realize how much power you have to, to change other people’s lives.

Until you talk about it, because for me, like before the Tata article, I just do my thing and I do what I think is great, but it’s just like, you know, um, and then you have other people looking at all what you’ve done is amazing because of this and this and that. And you’re like, at the beginning, you’re like, well, we just did what you know what you think is right.

And then, uh, which is the case anyway, but then you realize, oh, but I’m actually able. To influence people’s lives in a good way. Um, and it’s actually super motivating to hear that feedback and like, Oh shit, I can do more. Actually, I could do more, you know? And so it’s a great, it’s a great feeling to, to realize that then like, okay, I should do more.

Yeah, and it’s, it’s really interesting. Um, Fred that, like, at O& D, like, I’m really proud of the clients that we get to work with in the sense that if, if I can’t, this is just a rule that I have, and this is a weird rule. I’m not sure if I’ve ever disclosed this on the internet, but if I can’t look up to.

The client as either a mentor or someone who I’d aspire to be like or aspire to have many qualities like in the next 5 to 10 years. It’s not the right client for us. You know, and I see the work that you do as a, as a leader in the sales and marketing team as a co founder, as a man, who’s really understood this whole engagement and process piece to building out a massive, um, a massive company, like it really is a monster, like 280 devs is like, how many total stuff?

Isn’t it nearly 400 now? No, uh, maybe, maybe at the end of the year, we’re like maybe 320, 330, something. Yeah, it’s not, it’s not a trivial business that you’ve built and like, you’ve, you’ve done some amazing work. And, you know, I think that. You know, for those out there who feel like they’re on the, they’re, they’re a fringe minority in the society and, um, and stuff like that.

Like, you look up to someone like Fred, who has actually gone through it. And just for just for those listening who feel like they’re not. In an inclusive environment or they feel like, well, what was that? Sorry. Five minutes. Yeah. Yeah. I need to go after that. I’m sorry. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll cut this bit out.

Keep going. Sorry. We can cut that. But that really have to go. Yeah. Yeah. That’s okay. For those who, um, for those who feel like they’re not part of the fold and they may not feel like they fit in like Fred has like, like, what would you. What sort of advice would you give them?

Maybe it’s just an illusion, uh, that you don’t fit in, you know, uh, it’s what you, because you’re hard on yourself. You’re like, you know, people, I mean, most, I don’t, a lot of people maybe look at themselves and are overly critical. And I, I, I used to be like that and, you know, bashing myself for all my shortcomings.

And I still do it in some fashion. Right. But, uh, we create these stories in our heads that Are probably not true. And we feel like we’re judged by all these people, but most people, most people don’t give a shit. They just see you as who you are. And, uh, uh, and yeah, you don’t have, uh, friends. Not everyone’s your friend, but majority of things are going well.

And, uh, and, uh, and then it’s just about realizing the value you have as a unique person. Uh, you have strengths and weaknesses and being aware of that and. Focusing on, on your strength, uh, and, and working on your weaknesses, uh, maybe, uh, in the, in the, in the background, but, um, there’s so much more than who you are attracted to, for example, or.

Uh, or for some things you don’t like about yourself. That’s not what people see. They see you as human beings and they take what’s good from you. Yeah. And so, uh, but that’s what I took me years to learn it right and to not be ashamed of being in a room or feeling like I was, uh, uh, you know, this imposter syndrome and stuff like that, which I do.

Still do have sometimes, you know, um, but you can’t eliminate it completely. It’s just part of us having doubts. Yeah, I guess. Um, um, but sports helped me. So because the physical parties is, is here, like you can’t deny it. That’s us. We are physical. Being so if you can achieve something with your body, um, or you see improvement with your body and you can do this with friends and they accept you, uh, it can help you build your confidence, which then kind of, uh, helps you in other areas of your life.

Wow. That’s some, that’s some amazing things to part with. Now, I am really blessed because you’ve spent so much time on this podcast today. And I really enjoyed it. It’s been awesome. I’m not even going to ask you to plug Owens any, it’s all good. We can get that for another episode. What was that? Sorry. No, it’s true.

I thought you have great questions. Um, ’cause we didn’t prepare anything. Right. And, uh, really nice we got in there. I think that was part of the fun because I think that whenever Fred and I have a chat guys, it’s always like a fair, like a fairly natural like chemistry in the way we communicate and it’s all very flowing and I thought that would be the best way to run this.

Um, Fred, like it’s been. A true pleasure being on here. If you get any final words to the audience, like, if you want to plug Arcanis, go for it. Um, you can talk about what you have on offer at the minute, like, go, go, go nuts. What do you want to say? No, I mean, I have nothing, nothing else to add. I mean, we’re just, uh, you know, a software development company, uh, that’s extending, uh, Development teams.

We’re trying to do our best for our employees, our clients. Uh, if what I said is interesting to you and you want to reach out to me, uh, you can do so on LinkedIn or even simply on the Arcanis. com website. Um, and thank you for listening, uh, this far, uh, in the, in the episode. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to open source growth with Frederick Joy, co founder and head of sales and marketing.

At Arcanus it’s been unreal. And if you liked what you heard on this episode, feel free to smash that subscribe button on any of the podcasting platforms that you are tuning into today. I’m your host, Dean Denny founder and director of Owen Denny digital Australia’s number one SAS marketing agency. I’ll talk to y’all soon.

Catch you later. Alright, there we go. Thank you. Yeah. That was fun. We got to do that more often. Yeah, that was good. Thank you. You’re so welcome. And you’re looking sharp. I, I’m, I’m going to buy that shirt again because I freaking miss it so much. So last, I really have to go cause I’m going to be late for my appointment.

But my haircut, sorry, um, but I hated this portal. I like, I like the, so this is like a linen, right? I like this fabric. Um, I like the shirts, but I hated the, the, the fitting. And now they have like this slim fit stuff, which potato bag. Um, so then I got some, yeah, look, they’ve got slim fit, custom fit and classic fit.

It used to be better fitting about 10 years ago, but, um, yeah, I think this is a medium slim fit. That’s what I found. I have a medium slim fit and it’s great. Oh man, we can share clothes with like the, we could be like the yaya sisterhood. It’d be great.

All right. Have fun at your haircut. I’ll speak to you all soon. Um, I’ll, I’ll talk to the video editor and he’ll sort this out. Cool. And then just one thing. Um, if you send me the recording as well, we can, uh, add this to our own podcast. I’ll just make an intro and an outro at the end, and then we can smack this in there.

And I think that’d be great. That’d be amazing. We can do that. Thank you. Bye.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

I Now Have Two Mornings Per Day. Here’s How:

In this podcast episode of “Open Source Growth,” Dean, the founder and director of Owendenny Digital, discusses the impact of health on entrepreneurship. He shares his personal experience of giving up caffeine due to health reasons and emphasizes the importance of maintaining good health for business success.

Dean introduces a unique working arrangement he and his wife have adopted, where he dedicates the first four hours of the day to deep work and strategic tasks, capitalizing on the scientifically proven peak productivity time for men. He then hits the gym in the middle of the day, experiencing a second wave of clarity and energy, allowing for increased productivity and a more balanced lifestyle.

Dean encourages self-employed entrepreneurs to consider incorporating a midday workout into their schedules and invites feedback on the potential scientific backing for this approach.

Overall, he highlights the positive impact this lifestyle change has had on his business and personal life.

Here are the top 5 lessons learned from this podcast:

1. Prioritize Health for Business Success: Dean emphasizes the crucial role that personal health plays in entrepreneurial success. Taking care of one’s well-being can lead to increased productivity and overall business growth.

2. Strategic Time Management: Implementing strategic time management is key. Dean discusses the importance of dedicating the first four hours of the day to deep work and critical business tasks, taking advantage of the scientifically proven peak productivity time for men.

3. Adopt a Balanced Lifestyle: A balanced lifestyle is essential for sustained success. Incorporating a midday workout, as suggested by Dean, not only provides physical benefits but also contributes to mental clarity and enhanced energy levels, positively impacting work performance.

4. Customize Work Schedule to Fit Productivity Peaks: Acknowledge and leverage personal productivity peaks. Dean recommends aligning work tasks with individual energy levels, such as focusing on strategic work in the morning and incorporating a workout during midday to maintain optimal productivity.

5. Flexibility in Work Routine for Global Clients: For entrepreneurs dealing with clients in different time zones, flexibility in the work routine is crucial. Dean shares insights into breaking up the day to accommodate international clients, highlighting the importance of adaptability in a global business landscape.

Hey everyone. And welcome to open source growth. It’s Dean here, founder and director of Owendenny Digital, Australia’s top ranked SaaS marketing and growth agency, where we discuss everything from direct response advertising, customer acquisition strategies, marketing, brand strategy, and a whole lot more.

Now today’s episode is part of that whole lot more where we like to duck into things that the everyday software CEO and CMO will experience. And this is all about your health.

A few episodes ago, I released a podcast on my experiences in Indonesia. And I was talking to everyone about how I gave up caffeine by necessity. After being diagnosed with dyspepsia. Now. I’m not sure if dyspepsia may have been a false positive at the time. However, it felt like I had something completely wrong with me. And regardless of whether that was true.

I’m still off the caffeine. Five days out of seven. And I’m experiencing the overwhelming benefits of really getting your shit together when it comes to a great diet, plenty of water, no caffeine, no substances. And you know what it has been blowing my business op. We’ve had our biggest quarter ever.

Um, in the last quarter of the financial year. Uh, we’ve got an amazing slew of incredible clients that have joined the agency. And you know what I’m feeling on board and I think I’ve done it again. I think I found another hack, which I simply cannot wait to reveal to you guys today. Now if you are a CEO or a founder or a head of growth or a sales person. You would all understand the pressures and stresses and what it takes for you to succeed? From a health perspective as a entrepreneur. Right. You know, there’s early mornings. There’s late evenings. There’s conversations you need to have with your team to get them riled up. There’s a whole heap of, you know, sales calls you may need to make, if you, especially, if you’re a growth lead founder, um,

And, you know, back to back to back 50 to 60 hour weeks, or even 80 hour weeks for some entrepreneurs is just simply unsustainable. Your health will give way, you’ll start developing a whole heap of weird things like I did. A few weeks back when I had a style in my eye. And. You know, It’s it’s really crucial that you do whatever you can to maintain your health. Now, my wife and I, and I’m going to get her on the podcast at some point. Hannah, she’s the copywriter here at Owendenny digital. Um, that’s how that came to be is a story for another day for all you lovely people, but. My wife and I were thinking like, how can we change this? How can we hard code life into our schedule? How can we hard code?

Exercise into our schedule and how can we do the best we possibly can with the 24 hours we’re given each day. Now here’s some additional facts. Number one, it’s scientifically proven that your best work happens as a man. From the moment you wake up to the four hours after you wake up. So if you’re a biological male,

You’re more than likely to be able to do your best thinking your heaviest work between the moment you wake up and the four hours after that, which means that as a guy. It makes it doesn’t really make sense for you to go straight to the gym in the morning. If you want to do your thinking, if you want to do your strategic work, you want to get your deep work done. It makes perfect sense for you to not go to the gym right away. But instead.

Go and about your most critical long-term shit that you need to do in your business. Right? But then there’s the other side of the coin where it’s like, well, often you go to the gym, you feel unstoppable because you’ve done the reps, you’ve done the weightlifting, you’ve punched the bag. You’ve ran the kilometers on the treadmill, or you’ve swammed the laps in the pool or whatever your exercise choices may be.

And those endorphins can push you through the day. So I was talking to Hannah about this. I was thinking well, I’m kind of in a bind here honey. I’m I’m a male. Um, I have. You know, I I’ve got my best work. Possibly. can only come from like waking up early and grinding it out. But then I also want to make the most of when my testosterone levels are highest, which are between those four hours.

So, what do we do? And how to came up with this cutting-edge solution. It’s not really that complex FYI, everybody, but she came up with this great idea and she goes, Dean, you know what we’re going to do? You’re going to get up early. You’re going to work for four hours and then you’re gonna go to the gym.

Now the reason why I have named this podcast. The I get two mornings a day. And here’s how it’s because of the fact that I am working out in the middle of the day. And what’s insane about this is that my typical day involves me waking up at about six or six 30, depending on how long the snuggles in bed go for with my beautiful wife. I literally get up.

Pour a cup of decaf coffee and just get to work. And that’s sits at around about, you know, seven o’clock I’m doing work and then all the way through to 10 30. I am just working. I’m doing deep work. I’m recording podcasts, just like this one today. And I’m getting all the long-term strategic vision stuff done for the business, because that is.

100% the most difficult shit to do. As a founder, when you have teammates, you’ve got to get that done before anyone is up. It sounds crazy. It sounds like you need to have two workdays and one, yeah, you kind of do when you kick off as a founder, but that’s what you often need to do is just get up as early as you possibly can. Feasibly not, I’m not saying just join the 5:00 AM club Willy nilly, right?

Like you need to be able to do this. And then it’s at your time when you’re most productive as a man to get in there and do the best work you possibly can for the first three to four hours a day, use timers, the Pomodoro technique, like whatever it takes for you to be most productive and most efficient during this time, which provides you with the greatest leverage inside your organization.

That’s how the first four hours of your week need to begin. Not the fall, not the week, the first four hours of your day need to begin. Now. Why I’m saying it feels like you get a second. Wind or a second morning in a day. It’s because of the fact that when you get to the gym and then you get through your, your gym workouts, or you go to the swimming pool and you do your swim or whatever exercise you choose to go about doing, believe it or not, the endorphins replicate that same feeling of clarity that you’ve experienced in the morning.

So essentially you can get to.

Beautiful mornings in a single day. It is absolutely insane. And. Why this has been fundamentally important for myself as well. And this is a little disclaimer, is that. When you run a marketing agency, which has international clients from all over the world, like we are so blessed to be working with companies that have teams in Switzerland, in the Philippines, in Singapore. Um,

In Indonesia, like we’ve had so many incredible clients beyond Australia. We’ve also worked with companies in the United States. Um, in the UK, like there’s so much diversity with the work that we do in the companies and the clients we so graciously serve. That. Often you need to be on your toes. Much.

Longer in duration than your typical. You know, nine to five job in Australia. See if we were only servicing Australian clients, you know, getting up at six and working till five makes pretty logical sense. But when you have clients in different time zones, It makes perfect sense that you’re able to break up your day. So like what I’m starting to realize here, that I think that a lot of you self employed entrepreneurs may have the opportunity to do such a thing or self-employed marketers, or if you’ve got a business or you’ve got flexible working conditions from home.

As a man, I would totally suggest you to consider doing a workout during the middle of the day. Don’t go and wait for the end of the day, you’re going to feel rooted and you’re not going to get any of the clear minded benefits. I know a lot of people use the workout at the gym as a means to book end day.

However, I believe that if you can get to unique opportunities to do great work in a day, why wouldn’t you. Because you’re going to be feeling better because you get all the hard. Work that needs to be done totally uninterrupted. And it’s going to feel great. And you know that you’re not wasting, you know, quote unquote communication hours. When you have to communicate with people, you then get to the gym. And then when you communicate through these conversations, because you’ve worked on your self esteem, you’ve worked on pushing those reps or any of those hard quote, unquote activities that you need to do.

You get in there and you feel like, oh, Hey, this isn’t a problem. I can bounce through this. Or, oh, I’m reading this right now. Yeah, that’s fine. Like any form of like emotional, um, you know, turbulence that you may experience. In the afternoon, you can quite simply abolish in real time. So I’m not sure how scientifically backed this is. Let me know in the comments section of this video. So if you do know anything about the logic of having a workout during the middle of the day, I want to know about it because I sincerely believe that this is the reason why.

Were accomplishing a whole lot more. We’re feeling a whole lot more relaxed and feeling as if we’re living a whole lot more life. Now that we’re doing this in our household. See Hannah spends a lot of the time in the morning feeling creatively inspired. She’s doing amazing work inside the house. Like she’s, whether she’s doing art or she’s riding or she’s journaling or she’s learning, I’m spending a great.

Majority of my morning doing things. I love like reading great books and learning about particular marketing things and building our marketing strategy for our own agency. Like all the stuff that I love to do is getting done before 1130 and then all the things I need to do happen after that. And it’s making a tremendous difference in our business. And I want to give you the challenge.

Give this a go, like, honestly, give this unique working arrangement. If you’ve got the capacity to do it a go and let me know. I want to see if there’s any science behind this, because at the end of the day, this has made a massive difference to the way we live our lives. And holy smoke. I think it’s going to enable us to grow a whole lot further.

As an agency. So guys, I hope this has been value to you. Uh, if you’ve got any further questions, feel free to hit me up. Dean dot You can check out all my email, et cetera, et cetera in the job notes. But if you need some assistance with your direct response advertising, or if you’re struggling to get your software company to grow.

Just hit the link in the job notes of book, a friendly chat with me. We can go through what you’re currently doing. Explore some opportunities to see whether or not you may be able to grow through the power of paid traffic and direct response advertising. And we can take it from there. Anyway, guys, this has been unreal. Thank you so much for tuning in my name’s Dane, founder, and director of O and D digital. And you’re listening to open-source growth. Be well


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

Part 2 Marketing A Marketing Agency

Marketing A Marketing Agency – Part 2


On this Part 2 episode of “Marketing A Marketing Agency”, Dean Denny and Sam Kariuki discuss how to generate leads and create offers for their target audience. They explain how they initially made a mistake by offering a free website to the wrong audience, and how they then created offers such as a free LinkedIn order, Facebook go at it, and a strategy session. After two months of hard work, they launched their ads and generated a hundred and thirty leads.

They also discuss how to build relationships with potential customers and convert them into sales qualified opportunities. They explain the importance of giving value and gain trust before selling.


[00:04:40] Mismatched target audience; wrong market awareness

[00:09:06] Testing mindset yields success.

[00:23:09] Trustworthy relationships yield success.

[00:32:35] Building trust through events.

[00:38:30] Help clients solve challenges

[00:44:34] Marketing success through testing, failure, and data.

[00:50:13] Data-driven decisions for quick wins.

All right, everybody. Welcome to Open Source Growth. I am your host, Dean Denny, founder and director of Owendenny Digital. I can’t even say my business name, but Owens Denny Digital, Australia’s top ranked SaaS marketing agency. Now I’ve got a funny story for the next quarter because it’s just on this.

We actually took this advice and we laid it out and we’re going to talk about how we won an incredible client with this exact advice. So let’s. Guess how many leads we generated for the entire quarter for January to, January through to, uh, the end of March. How many? Just total, just pluck it out of the air.

Uh… Don’t look at the numbers, don’t cheat! More, more than, more than 20. Nah, we had literally only nine leads come through, but at the end, I know it was a failure. It was like a one out of 10 from the marketing team. Oh, thank you, Hannah. Oh, you’re the best. Uh, our beautiful copywriter and my beautiful wife, Hannah has just dropped me off a hot chocolate.

I am a lucky man. Um, now here’s what was interesting though. At the end of March, I was looking at the lead flow and I was feeling, I honestly was feeling a little bit dire about like, shit, this is not good for the agency. If we don’t sort this shit out, we are screwed. So I decided Sam and I, let’s run some Facebook ads.

And we started testing bottom of funnel ads and we started to generate some leads on Facebook again, but guess what? They’re more qualified. They weren’t just people who wanted to have a free hypey training. They wanted to work with the marketing agency and it came back to the whole, what is your lead quality?

And that was the next question that we started getting into because the last quarter of this financial year has 100 percent been good enough to make up for all of our cock ups at Owendenny Digital. 100%. It’s been great, but why has it been great? Because if you look at it so far, it’s looking insane.

And like. The number of leads we have generated for ourselves from the start of April, all the way through to the day we have today, we’ve, we’ve generated about 113 leads for ourselves. Right. And they’ve come from all different directions. So we’ve literally blown it out of the water. Right. So we set ourselves a target.

At the very start of the year to generate how many leads? Let’s have a look

to generate 261 leads at the start of the year. Now we didn’t do that. How much, how many have we generated? Generated 178. Now we didn’t, we, we got, we nearly got there. And I reckon by the end of the week, we’ll probably have close to another 20. So we’ll bet that 200 of the 260. So from a total lead volume thing, we’re going to do okay.

It was an ambitious target to begin with considering where we are, but now how far we’ve come, we’ve hit that point of actualization. We’ve properly profiled the avatar. We’ve developed different offers. We’ve gone through the entire hundred million dollar offer process with Alex Hormozy. We did that in the first quarter of this year.

So that was between January and March. We spent, we’ve got a hundred and something page workbook we created for this. I don’t know when we’ll make it available to the public to show you our process that we went through to get there, but it’s amazing. Then we decided to launch shit. Loads of offers, shit loads.

Yeah. So, Sam, I’m I’m, I don’t wanna do all the talking here ’cause I know you are immensely proud of the work we’ve done over the past two months or so. But let’s start with the worst offer to begin with. So we got, we got a bit busy and we got, we, we did the same cock up as usual. We got desperate. And what did we do?

We came up with an unfreaking believable offer. I’m going to tell you, I’m going to tell you what it is and then you’re going to tell me why it didn’t work. So basically I came up with this great idea. We do web design, we do digital advertising, we do copywriting, we do all sorts of cool, crazy, amazing, freaking growth related shit.

But we just, we, so we decided what’s a way to turn things around. It’s not looking good. It’s April. We need to figure out, what are we doing? So in May, I sat down with Hannah on the 1st of May. It’s like, we have to do some really serious shit. And I was like, we’re going to offer a free website if they sign up for more than six months.

Like a 15, 000 website for a client. And I thought that was unbelievable. I spoke to, I spoke to Kathleen, our web development, um, project manager and office manager. She was the most unbelievable thing ever. Hannah was like, whoa, that’s fricking insane. And then you were like, wow, that’s amazing. But it fell flat on its ass.

Why did it fall flat on its ass, Sam? Yeah. So I think one of the, one of the major thing we did there was not to understand our avatar. We taped out, didn’t we? We didn’t do our process. Yeah, we, we, we are looking for sales marketers and we, we don’t want, uh, startups, but who’s looking for a website? Like who’s looking for a website?

These, the people who are the people we were trying to work with were people who already had the people who the website was not their, their immediate problem. But then we came up with a very brilliant offer, but not for our audience, you know, not for our target audience because we, we, we came up with an offer for a startup for a person who, who doesn’t have a website because having a website.

As an offer that was up for a person who doesn’t have a website at that point, at that point, and even going back to the type of client that we have had previously, most of them had websites already, we could improve on it, we could improve on those websites. They designed the conversion. We can improve on that, but they had that already.

So it wasn’t enough for them. They didn’t need it. They didn’t know why they needed our website for free. They already have it, you know? So I think we, we mismatched, you know, we miss, we misread our avatar because we are offering like most of the clients that we get. We usually end up improving on their website.

So we thought that the website was an issue that they had at the point of coming to us, but that was not the case, you know, you know, it’s, it’s funny. So that was not the case. Yeah. So on this, there are five stages of market awareness and it goes by the acronym called upside. Unaware of a problem, problem aware, solution, solution aware, your solution aware, deal and offer of your solution aware.

Yeah, the funny thing about When people get engaged with a marketing agency, they may come. It’s like, Hey, I need new clients. I want to run Facebook ads. So they, they, they come fairly prescriptively into the funnel, right? They, they come in like, Hey, I want to grow my business. I want someone who can support me with my Facebook ads.

And so you can manage my services and make sure it all works. And I need a guarantee and whatever. Okay, cool. Yeah, great. Rad. We got this all, all for you, man. We got this. What’s interesting though, is we get in there, we start scoping out the project. And then all of a sudden we’re like, hang on. Whoa, wait.

If we’re going to be running Facebook ads at this website, we’re going to have some serious issues getting this right. So what do we end up doing? We’re like, well, in fact, not only do you need to do Facebook ads with us, but we also need to rebuild your website. And the problem is that it’s almost like, Hey, here’s a free website.

They were unaware that they needed it. So that was the problem. That was the wrong. Level of market awareness, and they don’t have the prescriptive understanding of what they need at this point. Number two, here’s what’s interesting for people who get their website built. It’s often a, it’s, it’s an exciting experience to start, but it’s a frustrating experience to finish and people never want to pay for headaches.

If I said to you, Hey, Sam, would you like a free headache with your marketing services? What are you going to say? No way. Exactly. So my point is that we’ve been really quite. Think this through properly, but the biggest sin that we’ve, we committed again was when you get desperate, do not try to broaden your audience.

And that’s what we did. We were like, and we made a really foul assumption as marketers. We, I enacted my, my lizard brain, my, my reptilian brain, and it went bad for me. I believed. That it would be easier to smell, not to smell, to sell a small business owner on a free website plus marketing. But guess what?

It’s so much tougher. It is actually tougher than selling your target market. So if you’ve got an agency or if you’ve got a business or whatever and you’re thinking broaden the audience, make it really cheap, let it go, it’s not better for you. It actually is so much worse because, you know, guys, if you’ve been in business, you know that profits are better than wages, but here’s the thing.

If you reduce your, if you reduce you, if you, you know, if you give people like a 20 percent reduction in overall cost, that’s a much bigger chunk out of your profits. You might be doing things profit free, and that will kill your business because it’s what I had for a business to work is profit. And if you don’t have that, it’s game fricking over.

So we did that in April, we did it badly. And then two weeks into the campaign, we were generating all these leads. None of them were closing. They were all startups. They were all people that just wanted to get kicked off in business. I was doing the whole thing. Oh, well, if you get some results for me and then I can pay for you and then it’s going to be a good thing.

And I was just sort of like, nah, this is wrong. Hannah, my wife sits me down and goes, Dean, you’re a SaaS marketing agency. Focus on SaaS, do it right. What would you do if money wasn’t a problem and things were working out fine for you right here, right now? So I sat down and sat down with it. I was like, I would create.

Marketing qualified lead offers to test for Facebook ads, for LinkedIn ads, for a SaaS user growth guide, and I would develop a couple of sales qualified offers around a free LinkedIn audit, a Facebook audit, a strategy session on a whatever. And that’s how I would, and that’s how I would do it. I would develop the different things that have email sequences and we’d go from there.

So then we spent the next two months in May going hammer and tongs creating all these things a lot of late nights a lot Of eating Domino’s pizza and garlic bread Typing away using chatGPT to help create these lead magnets and offers and all sorts of crazy stuff And guess what happened? We launched the ads and boom like 130 leads like bang done Yep.

Bring it. Exciting things. Start working. Hmm. Yeah, I think, I think, I think getting, uh, getting the right offer, I think one of the learning is have the right offer for your type of audience. Yep. Yep. Understand what that offer is. And by understanding what that offer is, you must understand the issues they are going through, you know, so that that’s what, because also one of the other thing we realized was that the offer we thought would be working really well.

Didn’t really perform, you know, the Facebook ads offer Oh, I know. Didn’t work really well as we thought it would’ve worked, you know? But the other offers that we came up with were working really well, and we were wondering, oh, that, what does this mean about our audience? This means our audience have really learned about this type of platform, and they don’t have much information about this type of platform.

And that’s where they are. They want to go, you know, and even now that way, now you understand, you start now understanding your customer awareness. You know, how aware are your customers? You understand if this Facebook is not working is either, if this offer is not working is either they, they really know about, about how this platform works.

Or they don’t trust it to work for them. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And it’s so funny because like we go through it and we were so wrong, like so many times, and we’ve done the research we’ve been on all the forums, we’ve done everything, but then. You get out there and you run the ads and it can just still slap you in the face and put you back in your place so quickly.

And it’s so funny because like, remember Sam, it’s like, Oh, the Facebook ad thing is going to just absolutely shred it. No Google ads, LinkedIn, SaaS user guide, absolutely crushed it. Then LinkedIn.

Um, no, no. Then we had the Facebook ads and just had to turn it off straight away. Then I thought, okay, people don’t want to do a strategy session. I, we, so we created for our, like our, you know, our introductory discovery call, we’ve called it a T2D3 strategy session. And we go through where they’re at, where they’re in their journey, bloody, bloody, blah.

And we tailor it to the person there then and there in the, in the thing, just to get them on the phone. Right. It’s so funny though. We had, I thought, Oh, well, people don’t want a strategy session. It’s a thinly veiled sales call. That’s what most marketing agency people think when they hear strategy, they’re like, Oh, that sounds like a bullshit call.

No one wants that. We haven’t been able to generate a single Facebook audit or a LinkedIn audit or a Google ads audit, but guess what everyone wants a strategy call. Yeah, they all want the strategy call. Like so we’ve got a, um, we’ve got marketing qualified lead campaigns that are working. We’re nurturing people through that.

Our database is blowing up. We’ve got sales qualified lead offers that are working and are generating appointments. Like we have a funnel. My friends, it’s amazing. We’re so blessed and we’re so lucky ’cause we do this for our customers so well, but now we’ve got it for us, like fricking and one. Yeah. And one of the things that, um, you know, people listening to this, uh, need to understand is that, uh, this marketing, this marketing industry, the more you know, the more you know about it, the more you understand your customer, the more you know, you don’t know.

Oh, you know, you come up with things, you come up with things that you thought the mindset. And this is, I usually repeat this to, to our clients. The mindset you have to have is a testing mindset. You know, if an offer is working today, really well. You can’t just sit on your laurels and think that it’s going to work forever.

You know, at some point it’s going to change. So you must keep on testing, keep on testing. And something that did not work yesterday doesn’t mean that it won’t work tomorrow. You know, it just means you just have to keep testing and keep testing and having that mindset really helps has helped us also even to, to reach where we are at the moment where we are generating sales qualified is out of.

Testing different things and not just saying this did not work. So it can never work is saying this did not work at this point. So if we do something else, we test it out, you know, and see whether it’s still,

it’s something, you know, any who could change, you could, is the way we name the offers, you know, name it in, uh, there’s a lot. Uh, there’s a lot that, uh, goes into naming an offer and it’s very important. And I think even this is a step that we are going, we also taking, you know, in how do we name this offer in a way that communicates value and communicates understanding that we understand the issue that these people are going through, you know, so naming is also something that people need to spend time on and naming an offer and then.

Because you can find that just by changing the name, you’re going to offer the same exact thing, but just by changing the name, people, people respond differently. 100%. And now we’re going to get talking about this because it’s really interesting, like at each stage we’ve had in each different quarter.

Right. Where we’ve had objectively good and bad months from a marketing perspective, we’ve learned different things about our business, but the problems have become more and more developed as the business has grown. Right. So initially the problem was, how do we generate leads? And then you’re like, oh, okay, cool.

We’ve done that. Okay. It didn’t work. Okay. How do we optimize the webinar? Okay. That’s our next thing. Okay. Optimizing a webinar is too difficult. Then the next thing we do is we go, okay, cool. How do we go back to optimizing SEO? And then we do that and it starts to work and then it starts to fail. What do we have to go again?

It’s, it’s just so dynamic. And what’s really interesting now is that we’ve now got a new problem, which is good because every level of growth you go through, you go through new problems. And our newest problem is Sam. It’s not. It’s not how to generate leads. We’ve got that down pat. Thankfully, we’re a marketing agency.

We do lead generation for other people. We’re good at it for other people, but we’re now learning about ourselves because we’re using our own processes on ourselves, which is the ultimate testimony to say that our shit actually works. Woo! Now, but like number two, right? Like this is where it gets exciting.

Is that our next problem we have to conquer. Hang on. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me get back to this in a second. You know how we’ve been talking about like personality and entertainment and experiences and how we have to bring that into the content now? Yeah. So, at the start of the year, I started to Towards the end of last year and the start of this year, I’ve started taking podcasting very seriously.

I’ve been doing the content. I haven’t been promoting the content, but I’ve been doing the content. So I, I told you this and everyone knows about it, but I think not many people may know on the podcast, but you know, I started infusing, I started using ChatGPT to come up with a lot of outlines for podcasts and whatever, and it wasn’t very good.

Then one night I had a big day. I was like, Oh, I can’t be bothered doing crap tonight. Be grumpy, whatever. So my dog Zoe, I’m sitting on the couch with my wife, Hannah. We’re talking and all that, our copywriter as well, FYI. And then my dog Zoe comes with this big sloppy ball and puts it in my groin. And I’m like, Oh, Zoe, I don’t want to play with you.

So it’s like, go away, Zoe. Then she comes back with like a tug of war toy and I’m like, Oh, tug of war toy. And I’m like playing with tug of war. And I’m like, hang on a second. My dog did some AB offer testing on me just then. And then what’s crazy. I’m like, Oh, podcast. My poodle did an AB split test on me. I did the podcast.

I recorded it. SEO optimized it. So people would pick it up. It’s on AB split testing, whatever. You wouldn’t believe it. Everybody. Because of that podcast, I now coach a Forbes lister with their direct response advertising. Now, what does that tell you? We have less than a thousand listens a month, guys. Like we are, we are not a micro podcast.

We are a nano podcast. Like we are little, little podcast and. Whoever listens to this, I hope you get some massive value out of this, but guys, if you are going to do a podcast, do start, make sure you optimize the living shit out of your podcast descriptions, get the timestamps, get everything. So Spotify knows to put you like right near the top when you’re wanting to look into things.

Like I’ve had some podcasts go viral. My podcast on quitting caffeine went well, but again, story, my podcast on AB split testing on my poodle got a client, which is paid for all the time I’ve had to podcast for life story. Stories sell. Marketers are liars, as Seth Godin would say, and it’s all, it’s about lying.

It’s about storytelling. Yeah, yeah. Guys, I think like we get so caught up in the direct response advertising game where it’s just like straight down the line sales or straight down the line, all this crap, but guys, just recognize that stories are what’s going to push your needle forward as a direct response advertiser, a brand marketer or whatever this year, because AI is going to create a whole heap of unimaginative, an unimaginative shit for your brand.

And everyone’s going to realize us being generated, people are looking for human stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I think, I think stories, personal stories, experiences, you know, those are the things that are going to, that are going to sell and now a way that the marketer who’s able to fuse your marketing principles, whether it’s a B testing and how Zoe is doing that with you, you know, if you can infuse that Uh, experience with a specific marketing principle and now share it in a way that is exciting and, uh, and something that is relatable.

Yep. Those are the marketers that are going to win, you know? Mm-Hmm. . Those are the marketers that are going to win. And, uh, in this age of everything being o uh, automated AI and things like that, stories. Personal stories, personal experiences. Those are the things that are going to really work, uh, for, for, for businesses, basically businesses has to start coming up with stories about themselves, about, about the people who work there, about their customers.

You know, whether it’s a cleaner in your office, what are the stories that you can come up with about, about your own as a business, probably about your own values as a business and things like that, you know, so it’s, it’s, it’s about, and, and, and it’s coming a time where you, you, as a business, you will need to, to come up with the, uh, stands and values that you stand for, you know, yeah.

Thank you. Because, because the market is going to be fragmented to very micro, micro, uh, audiences, you know, and markets. So it’s very important that you understand those people, understand them, understand what moves them, you know, and now give content at that level. Give content at that level. Once they trust you, once they, you, they build that, uh, relationship with you, then they’re willing to spend money with you because people understand, you know, people understand that we are not angels.

People are not angels. People have challenges and things like that. All they want to do is, do we have a vibe? Are we clicking? You know? Mm-Hmm. you as my service provider and me as the business. Are we clicking? If we click. I’m able to spend money with you, you know, because I know we are having, we are not, it’s not about Uh, an issue where I’m going to follow up on you every time.

You know, you are understanding my business. I’m understanding you even in terms of payment and things like that, we can work together in the journey of success because that’s also something that people are looking for, people are looking for longterm, uh, if, if it’s a marketing agency, a marketing agency that we can work with longterm and, and most marketing agencies go for short, short term projects.

And then they leave that client, you know, if you leave that client, where do they go? You know, how do they market? Probably even offering a training for the in house team, you know, for the in house team as part of the thing that you’re doing could work, you know? So all those, it’s, it’s about you as an agency, as a business, looking at the success of your client, how best can I help them succeed?

How best can I help them save money, you know, and being genuine about it because Google is now our friend. So people are Googling everything. YouTube is there with a lot of content. So there’s, there’s information overload. Absolutely. If you go to a client and you can be able to lay down that information and how to execute each specific step and, and you remove that.

burden of understanding what all this information is saying. Those are the people that people are going to trust. These are the people that people are going to engage and they will be willing to pay. You know, they will be willing to pay and it won’t be like you’re selling. It will be to be conversation.

You want this and this is how to get there. And because at some point you will understand people are not scared of spending huge sums of money. They’re just scared of spending huge sums of money with no results. You know, people are scared of not getting the results. and they have, they have a right to be skeptical about agencies.

They have a right to be skeptical about people who are providing services online because they have been scammed before. They have hired people who, and they have those stories, you know, so it’s about, it’s about agencies, it’s about businesses. creating, creating their own value, creating their own persona that is trust, uh, worthy of trust, you know, trustworthy and, and, and, and something that people can relate to.

And people are understanding that I’m not coming to do miracles. I’m coming here to work. You know, we are going to work together and we are going to achieve these results. If we follow this process. You know, and and and also being able to interact with them in a way that is trustworthy and they can share information because something else that as an agency you struggle with is having a client who’s not giving you all the information.

Oh, if I had a penny for every time I heard that. Oof, oof, oof, oof, yeah, yeah, yeah. If they’re not giving you all the information, so you are working with the wrong information, not full disclosure. So. You’re not fully grasping the, the enormous task that you, you, you actually have to do, you know, and, and, and as an agency, we know that information, getting all the data information, you know, if we, if we give you 50 leads, it’s about you going through those leads, understanding who they are, whether they are qualified or not qualified, because that information is going to help us, Uh, change tact, you know, be flexible in our strategy, change time, change offer and do something that is working, you know?

So all those small, um, moving parts that, that as an agency, you have to incorporate in, in, in your execution of your own strategy and the client. It’s, it’s, it’s key to your success. Now, here’s the last thing, and I know you’ve been wanting to talk about this today because I know it’s your new favorite thing.

You know, that’s what I’m about to say. So before, before we went down the, that great rabbit hole, we were talking about, okay, we’ve got new problems now. We’ve got so many leads to talk or call, where can we find the time of the day to do this? How do we sift through all the junk leads? How do we sift through all the good ones?

How do we properly nurture the right ones? And at scale, how do we take people from marketing qualified lead through to sales qualified opportunity, right? And that’s really crucial. And I just did a podcast, which would been released. A couple of days before this one goes live, and it was on the topic that email nurturing sequences are no longer enough when it comes to taking someone from a marketing qualified lead through to a sales qualified lead or a sales qualified opportunity and.

This is where, you know, with this problem, with the business growing and there’s greater leads coming into the company. And we’re all really excited about how all these amazing things are. And it’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s overwhelming and just so beautiful. We’re going to have our biggest year, like our team’s getting bigger and it’s getting badder and stronger.

It’s like, we’re really turning into the Mike Tyson of helping SaaS companies grow, you know? And, um, but here’s the thing guys, like. We don’t need a huge lead volume to be successful because we are a boutique agency, but what we do need is a means of taking all our hard work and capitalizing on it. Now, if you’re generating a heap of marketing qualified leads and you’re nurturing them and they’re not nurtured enough.

There’s something missing in your sales process and Sam, what do you think you want to talk about today? It starts with a, and, and, and ends in vent. Why are we going to be doing now? Tell everybody, why are we going to be doing live events? Every fortnight or even every week depends on how good these go for us.

Again, guys, this is all speculative. We haven’t put anything in concrete yet for next year. So why are we focusing on live events coming into the new financial year? So this is, uh, this is an important, um, an important aspect and it’s about touch points. It’s about customer touch points. You know, in, uh, you know, people think that, uh, marketing has changed really has changed in, uh, enormously and things like that.

But I think it goes back. It’s just the basics. It’s the way we deliver changes. We are offering, we are offering things online. Digital is changing things, AI is changing stuff, but the core of business marketing has not changed. You know, the reason why people. Why you need events, why you need to keep, you know, in constant contact with your customers hasn’t changed, you know, the way it’s being done has changed, but the essence of it hasn’t changed.

So the question is, we have gotten these people online. We have 150, 200 people leads. We know that there are people who could be our customers, but this is their first, because if you look at it, we have really great offers that are working that we only need the person to click on our ad once, you know, for them to, to, to become, uh, to become, uh, a lead, you know, so we really targeting the right people, the right people are taking the action, you know, and they are taking it once they see it, They, uh, they, they, they do the necessary, they become a lead, right?

But now that means that the first time they have seen it, that the first time they have engaged with us, you know, so it cannot be that at first, that, that first instance, the next day they are going to convert, give us the 10, 000 that we are looking for. You know, we need time now to build that relationship to a point where they trust us.

The way we’ve been doing it is having an email sequence going out to these people a week, two weeks. We ask for the offer that really is not building the relationship that we need, you know? Mm-Hmm. . Because these people need to see us. These need, these people need to, to know who you are, your personality, because we say that is very key to, to building trust.

People want to know that you are actually not just using automated sequences. Yeah. To reach out because know it now. Yeah. They know it, they know it, especially understanding our, our specific client is that they know these things, you know, they probably have these systems themselves, like, like, we have a SaaS, we have a SaaS client.

Whose main product is email sequencing, you know, , and then we’re using email sequencing to them. They’ll see it and they’ll know, oh, this is exactly what I’m selling, you know? Yep. So they understand. They understand the space that we are in, the tools we are using. They understand because they ares customers.

So the only way they trust you now. Is when they have one on one with you, but now getting them one on one, they know, you know, they know this is a sales call. That’s what they do. That’s also what they do. You know, when they get you on a sales, on a, on a call, they are going to try to sell you, you know, but for us, we have to be very genuine about our processes about the things we do.

And that’s where the event now comes in because you cannot have. These people coming onto a call one on one. Now you can have one to make. One to many talking to them about the problems that they are facing and the solutions that are there in terms of marketing, you know, and getting them onto something like that is, is key and events are the next big thing that you need to do at that point, because they are going.

And this is what is going to happen in an event. They are going to see you. They are going to gauge your personality. They are going to see, you know, because you are talking to them, they can see your face. They can see, uh, the challenges you’re having in explaining what you know, you know, because that’s what they want to get.

When I come to you one on one, what I’m looking at is, do you understand what you’re talking about? You know, , do you understand what you’re talking about? Do you understand the problem I’m facing? You know? Mm-Hmm. . And once I’m able to identify that, then I know, okay, this guy seems to be a good guy, right?

Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. This guy seems to be a good guy. It’s a guy that I can follow up a little bit further, you know? Mm-Hmm, . And now the next, now that event have to be scheduled in a way that helps you. To eventually give you an offer, you know, and, and, and now in the planning, the event that’s where now it’s important, you know, and, uh, what we are saying, uh, is we can have an event where it’s just, uh, us talking the way we are talking right now, you know, it could be just us talking, no seals, no nothing, just giving gems and pointers on how you can grow your own business.

That’s great. That’s one way, you know, but because you want as, as a marketer, you want to move people from one point to the next point, this content, the people who come to these events and you understand them and everything, the next thing will be to, to design the event such that we give all the value that we can give.

We gain all the trust that we can gain. And then we have an opportunity to actually. Sell, you know, we have an opportunity to actually sell and without, without, you know, hastening the process, because I think one of the greatest challenge you are having is trying to make this process really fast. And this process is really, really slow, you know, because people will want to come to you.

They will want to hear you. They will want to, as they trust you, then they will be able to. Come back and, and, and at a certain point later on, you will be able to sell. So for us as a, as marketers is to understand how do we frame our, our event so that we, we narrow that journey. We build trust and people trust us because we’ve given them really great content, really great value.

Yeah. Then tell them infuse our offers such that people are easily. Going to, to, to schedule the calls, you know, schedule the calls, uh, get into the offers that we are offering at the, at that point, you know, it’s about understanding that process and understanding the reason why we are doing the event is purely, purely for building trust with these people.

The reason why a person can schedule a call and not come or show up for that is. They haven’t really trusted, you know, it’s, it’s just, they don’t trust you to give them the solution. Probably the issue is they think it’s a sales call so they don’t show up because they think, you know, It’s it’s 10. It’s 20 minute call.

So they’re just going to give me really quickly They are not going to understand my my problem, you know, so the offer Is it is it me Is it me having 10 minutes to speak about my product, my service, or is it me having 10, 30 minutes with a client for the client to talk about their business with, you know, once they are facing.

All those challenges. Then I can say, you know what? Uh, I think this is, uh, we identify issues with them and that now with those issues, then we can lay down the solutions that can work for them. You know, it’s not about selling. It’s about helping. I think that is a mindset that has to change, you know, Yourself, but go out there to help, help, help.

And if a client, if, if a pro a client’s problem can be resolved by just saying, go try this.

Let them go. Try and let them build a, a, a problem that is, that is bigger. Because I think also some clients have really simple challenges. You know, it’s just a challenge of telling them you can do this and it’ll change, you know, and, and. Framing your call, framing your call to be something that helps them resolve some of the challenges they are facing will really get people to show up on that call, but they will only show up once you build and and the way you do that is through events and online events for now are the most, uh, the easiest to do, but Even as time goes by is actually having people come physically, you know, the way you build that trust, get people to come online, get people to come physically.

And as. As, as you interact with them more times, you’re going to get them to engage, engage with you. Because remember, it also depends with the amount of money you, they have to, they have to pay for the services that you’re offering, you know? Yeah. So if you have 10, 000 per month, You are, you are seeking 10,000 per month.

Then you need to spend time with them. They need to understand you. They need to understand you really well and to trust you really well, that you can provide what you say you could. So it’s about as, as businesses understand that process and understand the amount of trust you need to build for a person to buy.

And, and the amount of trust you need to build is increasing. You know, the value is increasing doing it. There are so many people doing it. So for you to stand out, you have to do more. Mm-Hmm, . Yeah. And on this, on this topic as well, Sam, I think what’s good for everyone that’s listening right now is that with events, you don’t have to have some crazy thing.

An event could be something as simple as an ask me anything session. It could be a hot desk, it could be, um, a live interview on Facebook. It could be even an interview between your team members on Facebook. It could just be Sam and I like we you are listening to today. It could just be this, we could do this live and this is what they could do, but like.

That’s the, the thing. Because, again, people are so used to automation. People are so used to, um, You know, just getting crappy lead magnets flicked at them and all sorts of stuff, you know. Like, um, you know, everybody’s just used to so much like generated crap. They just want real people that can really help them.

And I think, you know, with these live events, which we’ll be doing every week and every fortnight, you know, this is going to be, uh. So we can help more people at scale. Like if you’re listening to yourself to this today, you may be one of the, you know, the 10 or 20 people that listened to this podcast this month, but this could really blow your mind.

There’s a lot of content that we’re covering today. Um, and just remember guys that this should be like. Oh, I want to just say here and really emphasize, cause we’re going to wind this episode up in the next two minutes or so, um, is that everybody, like even the best of us, like, like tip of the spear marketers like us, we can get it wrong.

And does that upset us? No, or maybe for 10 seconds, but when we do get it wrong, we’re upset. And then we’re like, then we get curious. Right. And, you know. It’s interesting. We, we, we we’re happy that we know one way that doesn’t work, . That’s exactly right. It’s the process of elimination. Strike it out work.

So we go on to the next. Exactly. You know, and, and the funny thing is like it, you know what, if you listened to the story, you, if you listened to the, the four months we had, we had a okay, we had a good, we had a good court first quarter, even though I was not really there to be seen in the business in the first quarter of the year, then.

October to December was average. January to March was even worse. And then this May, this April through to June, we have got our shit together and it’s really starting to hum. And if you ripped off, if you ripped off this last quarter, this financial year, you would have given us a marketing score and I don’t blame you.

Of like a two out of 10, but here’s what’s interesting. We don’t need huge volumes of leads a year to be successful. Like 250 high quality leads a year. We’ll, we’ll turn our business into a seven figure business. Like it’s very simply if we’ve got it, right. The second thing is that with our business is that.

You know, I think this is with any business is that you just need one good quarter and you can turn it all around for yourself. It’s very simple, you know, and what there’s been a few massive learnings here, Sam and I, and I think, you know, apart from, you know, don’t cheap out on your process, really go back to first principles, get down to your customer avatar.

Um, you know, get back to your customer avatar, really refine and develop your offer and spend the time doing it, you know, launch different ads, test a whole heap of things, recognize there’s a difference between developing offers for content and there’s offers for sales calls. And then. Once you get bigger, you get better problems.

It’s not just about leads. It’s specific types of leads with specific types of buying intent. And then during that process, how do you ascend people from low intent to interested in you because they’re showing up at a webinar. How you take people from interested in you to jumping on a sales call with you, whether it be through automation or whatever.

And it’s really funny. There’s been some real cool stories we’ve learned this year. And. It all comes back to, sometimes you just got to stay disciplined, stay, stick to the plan, don’t get, don’t get desperate and just do the work you set out to do and you can really succeed. Um. And I think that’s really it for me.

Any final comments from you, Sam?

Uh, yeah, I think, I think you’ve said it, uh, pretty much, uh, everything that needs to be, to be said. But it’s for listeners to understand that marketing, for you to have successful marketing, whether you’re an agency or any other type of business, you must allow yourself to fail. Allow yourself to fail.

Understand that marketing is about testing different offers. And the greatest thing about digital marketing is that you can really feel fast because it’s about that. Feel fast, feel quickly, you know, get out of that. Understand things that don’t work because you’re going to have really brilliant ideas that.

That really don’t mean shit.

Those, those ideas that you think are brilliant and everything, but when you lay them out and you take them to the market, the market is going to say, that’s not what we need. And you must be willing and ready to have that emotional. Uh, intelligence and also like, like, don’t be depressed when the market says no to your best offer, you know, just come up with an offer that they actually love, you know, because another thing that People have is that, you know, you came up with an offer, you spend time, everything.

And it’s actually going even to spend your own money to deliver this offer, but the market says no. So it’s, it’s about you separate yourself, separate your emotions from it. If they say no, understand they have said no to the offer, come up with a different offer. And you might find that the simplest offer, the simplest offer could be the one that works.

Something that is easy for you to do. You didn’t like, like you thought that was not valuable to the person at that point. That’s exact thing they need for that simple step. They need to take the next step. So understand always, always think about what’s the next step for my clients. What’s the next step?

And it would be just information, you know, do this. Do that and they will love you for that. They will trust you. They will, they will be coming to you for information and, and the next thing, event, hit record, record everything you’re doing, have it out there. You’re definitely going to start showing people you are.

a human. You can do things. They’re going to trust you, trust your personality, and that will be the thing that will help you win. Differentiate yourself, build your own, or create your own blue ocean. And, uh, and, and at that point you will be in the category of one. I think that’s in the 100 million offer, right?

The category of one. Yeah. Where, where, where you are the only one who’s leading in that category. Yeah, absolutely. I’m, I totally believe you there Sam. That’s exactly what it is. It’s about. Yeah, and I’m, I think, you know, if I was, if I was a, say a B2B business, whether it be an agency or a SaaS products today, listening to this.

I hope this gives you a bit of hope, you know, you can turn it around in a quarter, you can create a category of one, you can grow your, you know, your pipeline through digital advertising, you know, there are several ways of doing this, like, you know, you’ve got your outbound, you’ve got your people telemarketing, you’ve got your people running Facebook ads, LinkedIn ads, Google ads, YouTube ads, you name it, it’s all happening, right?

It’s through this rigorous process of transcription by Going through anecdotally, but also through the numbers and the statistics of what worked, what didn’t work and doing it every quarter or even doing a bit of a roundup like today for the year to give you some flavor of where we go. Like we can’t reveal all the things we’re going to be doing.

This year just yet, because I want to make sure that’s another episode in itself of Dean and Sam talk. Oh, and Denny digital’s marketing strategy for the year, because I think once we’ve got a pretty good understanding of what the next 12 months look like, we’re going to go do, we’re going to run this back again.

Do you think that you’ll have a bit of fun doing that? Yeah, definitely. Those are the things we look forward to, you know, cracking, cracking the data. And, and, and actually one of the other thing is, is for people to. Work with the data. Look at the data. What is this saying? Do that, you know, don’t, don’t impose your feelings onto the data.

You know, Yeah. Yeah. Feelings. Don’t pay the rent, let lead you. Yeah. You know, , let, let it lead you. You know, make decision based on the, be data driven and that will help you. Yeah. Make the, the, the changes that you need to do quickly launch what you need to, to launch quickly. Learn very fast. And, uh, those are, those are the things that are going to give you really quick wins.

Yeah. And, um, yeah, I can’t wait for the, for the next year, you know, next year for us to launch all those things that we’re talking about. A hundred percent. And, uh, to get, to see, to see exactly. How, how, how that one works out and sharing, you know, sharing that journey, because I think also that is very sharing that journey with, uh, with our audiences in the podcast and, uh, and, and other platforms, you know, sharing that journey will be, will be, I think the most interesting thing.

I think so. And I think that, you know. I think that there’s real value in sharing this journey and, um, we’re having a whole heap of fun doing it. So look guys, I think that’s probably it. Let’s wrap this up. Thank you again, everybody for listening to open source growth. This is a new format. Um, you know, obviously it’s Sam and I going through what’s working and what’s not working, but I hope you got a whole lot from that.

Um. Get back to your, get back to the basics, customer avatar, do the numbers, do the math. Um, we’re going to do a, I think we should be doing a few of these coming in soon, Sam. So, um, I think, I think, I think what, what, and this is just something that I’m, um, I’m throwing out there, you know? Okay. It’s a listener.

It’s a, it’s a world first listeners. Here we go. Like if you want to have something like this and, uh, let’s, let’s say we want to test out TikTok. You go, you go live on Tik TOK. I go live on Tik TOK and, uh, and, and, and we are now live. Both of us discussing this, we have our meeting on meeting on, on the Google meet, we are live on, uh, on Tik TOK and we share this, you know.

It definitely is going to, to, to establish us in that platform because on TikTok, going live is really, it’s really something that is, uh, peaking, you know, so it’s about understanding a platform and understanding how we can create content in that. from easily, you know, easily. So if you are, if you are lying, both of us on that platform probably would be having like, uh, uh, 200 people watching you and watching me on the same platform, understanding all this content.

Why not? I gotta, I gotta feel like I’ve been blessed with the biggest challenge. Yeah. It’s something, and this is, this is. Yeah, this is the thinking that each business have to have with all these platforms coming up. It’s about how do you use them? How do you infuse them in your daily working of your business?

You know, because having time to do stuff for a specific platform, you know, it’s time consuming and we only have 24 hours and probably eight of those are sleeping time, you know? So, so it’s very important that we Each time, whatever we are doing, hitting record, you know, recording each, everything that we are doing that is recordable, recording that is key, you know, recording that will help us to, will help us to generate the content we need to push us to the next level content that is relatable content that is not scripted content that is on the go.

Content that will help us build the trust that we need. Let’s do it. All right, Sam. I think that’s, that’s it for today. Thanks for your time. Um, it’s been unreal. I appreciate everybody who’s who’ll be listening to this. Who’s listening to this. It’s a, it’s really interesting. Looking forward to feedback.

Yeah, please guys, if you like what you hear today, uh, feel free to subscribe to the podcast. Um, you know, we do do this every week. We try to drop two to three episodes every single week to help fill your ears with all the good shit to help you grow your SaaS, B2B or online brand effectively with digital advertising.

If you need. Anything more from us. If you just want to see whether it help it working with Owendenny, any can help you. All you need to do is jump into the show notes and hit book a 10 minute chat. You’ll speak directly with me, Dean, and we can go through your business, your unique problems and issues that you’re facing with growing your business and see whether or not we can actually help you.

Yes, we do turn people away, but the people that we do welcome and accept. They fricking love the Owen Denny experience guys. It’s been unreal. Thank you so much for tuning in. It’s been a long one today. I hope you got something from it. Stay well, God bless. And I’ll speak to y’all soon. Cheers for now.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


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Marketing A Marketing Agency – Part 1


On this PART 1 episode of ‘Marketing A Marketing Agency’, host & founder Dean Denny is joined by Sam Kariuki, Head Of Performance Media at Owendenny Digital, to discuss the importance of understanding the market and the messaging you give to your audience.

They explained how AI is changing the way we do things and how marketers should focus on personal experiences to stand out.

They also covered how to speak your customer’s language and how to use paid traffic to grow your business. They emphasized the importance of colonization when it comes to marketing and how to create a successful webinar.



[00:04:27] Marketing agencies lack customer avatar.

[00:10:49] Message-market mismatch: understand industry.

[00:17:52] Marketing agency learns hard lesson: no perfect, extreme headlines work.

[00:23:30] Learn, pivot, adapt, relate, brand, succeed.

[00:35:40] Launch webinar, change it, great offer drives conversions

[00:42:37] Build trust with clients through language.

[00:49:09] Dynamic content for changing markets.

[00:54:42] Create unique content with personal experiences.


All right, everybody. Welcome to open source growth. I am your host, Dean Denny, founder and director of Owendenny Digital, Australia’s top ranked SaaS marketing agency. Now here’s a crazy one for you all today. I have my Kenyan King Kong killer, the ultimate marketing brain behind a lot of the hardcore paid traffic strategies, marketing strategies, offer development and so much more.

At Owens, any digital, everybody, Sam, Kara Yuki, what is going on, Sam?

Wow. Thank you. Thank you very much, Dean, for this opportunity. I really appreciate that. I really love it. And, um, yeah, it’s, uh, It’s, uh, it’s great here in Kenya and, uh, we are doing, we are doing great. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and I’m loving, uh, working with, um, all these, uh, digital, digital marketing agency, and, uh, also working with different size companies and, and seeing how, you know, how big this industry is and, uh, and, uh, also even how, how different businesses are really trying to.

Uh, to, to like, you know, get, get into this, uh, field of digital marketing. So it’s great. It’s great to discuss this with you and also, yeah, to, to see how this one goes.

Yeah, well, absolutely guys. And it’s, it’s really interesting that. Like with a lot of the episodes of open source growth, we normally just like lock me in a room and be like, Dean, create content, go.

And, you know, they just sit me in front of the microphone and just create. Here’s a few prompts, whether we develop them on chat, GPT or I just come out of them, pluck them out of the air, or I tell a story or whatever. But today’s podcast is a little bit different because a lot of people, especially in the marketing agency world, Have no freaking idea how to market themselves as a marketing agency.

It’s actually funny. It’s actually hilarious that, you know, we’ve got these positions of authority and experience and no one. Knows what to do when it comes to marketing themselves as a marketing agency or a digital marketing agency or a videography company or something like that. Now, before we get into what we’re going to do today is we’re going to go through each of our quarters at Owen Denny digital.

We’re going to be talking about some of the leads we’ve generated. What campaigns have worked, what campaigns have flopped, why have they flopped? What have we learned and what are the chasms that we need to cross in the next financial year? Hint, it’s not another platform. Hint, it’s not Snapchat. Hint, it’s not TikTok.

It’s something which can turn your sales qualified or your marketing qualified leads into your best sales qualified leads. And I’m know that Sam’s going to be talking about that one thing which happens live and it starts with E and ends in vent and looks like a free training. He’s going to talk all about it later.

Um, but you know, in today’s, um, podcast, I just want to go through this. But before we even get into it, Sam, why do you think? Marketing agencies struggle with marketing themselves. Why do you think this is the case?

I think one of the major, the major reason is in uh, crafting an offer for their audience, basically.

They, they exactly know what they are doing for their, for their clients. So most marketing agencies know what they are doing. They are marketing for other businesses, right? That’s what they know. But now communicating that in a way that offers value to their specific audience. That’s one of the biggest challenge.

They are unable to differentiate themselves from other agencies. So, like now, when you go to this audience, uh, your clients, the clients that you want, it’s the same message. So agencies are unable to differentiate themselves from others. They offer the same. And also as we run them, because I’m part of an agency, as we run these agencies, what we are doing is, is thinking that our client understands.

Yeah. Yeah. So we just go there and telling them you need marketing, you need more leads, you need all this. But instead of as an agency to think about your, your client in more specific terms, what is it that they want to achieve? And how can you help them achieve it? So it’s about coming up with that customer avatar and understanding exactly why these people want marketing and they don’t want marketing just for marketing sake is for them to get leads.

So if you can show them how you can get those leads in a way that is different from others. That will be, that will be, that will be the difference, you know, and also now understanding the process, you will be getting them. How do you get them, uh, onto the, you know, on your doorstep, you know, how do you get them knocking on, on your doors?

If you don’t have something that is really, really good. And, uh, valuable to them. So understanding what is it that you have valuable for them? That’s one thing. Why should they listen to you as an agency? There’s so many agencies out here competing for the same audience. And that, or that those clients are few, but.

They are really willing to spend a lot of money to the person that is, uh, that is going to give them the right results. So understanding the offer and communicating that offer effectively, that’s, that’s, that’s where most agencies are stuck. They know how to, they know how to do it for, uh, those other clients.

Yeah, but they don’t know how to portray their own value to those clients. That’s the,

that’s, it’s, it’s, it’s mind blowing, isn’t it? It’s like,

and I think that the biggest thing is, is that, uh, because you spend time with your client, understanding them and all that. Now you can craft a very good offer, but you don’t spend the same amount of time.

Understanding yourself as an agency, understanding the offer as an agency, and then now communicating that value to your customers. Think about it this way. Think of your own agency as your client. That’s the mindset you should have. Think of yourself as your own client. If, if you spend a month going through developing a strategy with a client, take that month, go through the same processes with yourself.

You know, and, and I think will help, uh, unlock a great, um, value in, uh, in the way you communicate, understanding, because the other thing is, uh, you, you pick a niche, uh, because you want clients, you know, we, we, we fall into the same trap that our clients fall, fall into. You know, taking the process, you know, so that is, uh, that’s a great, uh, that’s, that’s the biggest challenge that, uh, that I find ourselves also having, having gone through the process.

Yeah. How that process is a grueling, you know, you will also appreciate the, the, the grueling nature of that process, even to the client that you’re, you’re, you’re, you get the clients

that you get. Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s so funny, Sam, you say, you say a few, there’s a few real nuggets that you’ve dropped there.

The, the big one for me, I, I found straight away is that. Yep. There’s no defined offer. You know, we’re a big fans of this book here at the agency. If you can see the word screen, you’ve got a hundred million dollar offers. That’s amazing. Um, yeah. So, and it’s funny cause it’s not just. It’s not just like paid offers.

It’s also like content offers and it’s, you know, you know, pre sales offers or sales qualified opportunity offers, whether it be like a free code audit or a free strategy call or whatever it needs to be right now, what’s also fascinating that you said there was that, and this is true, I can guarantee you this, like if I, most agencies.

Try to do too much for their customer and they tried to have too broad an audience and because they’ve got too broad an audience, they try to write, develop either an offer or even messaging or creatives, which go just so, so broad, but they mean nothing to anyone. Whereas if you’ve got a really defined avatar and it’s unfreaking believable how many marketing agencies simply do not have a customer avatar on tap for their target market.

They can’t even tell you, Hey, if you document from nine to five, what this person’s average day of his life looks like between the hours of nine to five. And also by the time they wake up, the time they get to work. And then when they leave the office, they jump in the car and they drive home, what they’re thinking about, what conversations are they having with their wife, et cetera, et cetera.

If you cannot map out the life, a day in the life of your prospect, it’s game over. It is completely like, it’s a tragedy. It’s all done. You’re like, you don’t have any chance of getting the marketing right. And it’s, it’s so funny. And this is my personal belief around marketing agencies having a, this is my weird theory.

So there’s two or two or three reasons why I think that we suck at it. Like not us personally. We’ve worked hard at it this year. Um, and we can’t wait to go through the winning campaigns and the losing campaigns because I think it’s a bit of fun because no one knows what happens behind a marketing agency’s door a lot of the time because it’s the internet.

Right? So like, is this my, I’ve got a few, few ideas around this. So, idea number one, the reason why marketing agencies struggle to market for themselves is because they struggle to, because they can do too many things. It’s too hard to market. So they struggle around like what they can do. The second problem they have is that, as you said, they think that everybody needs marketing.

Whereas they don’t, they don’t really recognize based on the target market. Where are they in terms of the level of buyer awareness as Eugene Schwartz talks about in Breakthrough advertising so they don’t know what messaging resonates to the right person and they don’t know how to call out their target audience Based on their level of market awareness.

The message, market match Yes, the message market mismatch Lots of mismatch Lots of mismatch And then It gets better And then It gets better The funniest part about this on top of that, like they don’t actually, because I was listening to a Dan Martell Instagram reel. He’s the guy who’s got like the Sass Academy.

He’s really good. Dan Martell, check him out. Um, Sam, if you haven’t already, um, he talks about, we’ll do more for others than we would do for ourselves. And what painter’s painter’s porch mentality where you are doing the customer avatar worksheet. You’re going through your offer, all this stuff, but because you’re doing it for yourself.

You’re so emotional and you’re just like, Oh, I don’t have to do it today. I can just make my money. And the main agency is making money. I’m going to be fine. It’s not going to be the end of the world, but you need to go through your process as unemotionally as you would for your customers on your own business.

So then you can craft the perfect offer. You’ve got the perfect customer avatar. You know, you almost feel like you need, you need an agency to run your own ad agency. Just so you, just so you, you can remove yourself emotionally from your own business. And I think that’s, that’s, you see, I think it’s, uh, as an agency, it’s very important that you understand what you even tell your own clients, you know, Yeah.

Go through the same growing process that you go with your, with your clients. Because we understand, we exactly know, we go through a client, he tells us about their own business and we understand it. We can, we understand it, we understand the customers, we create the customer avatars. But when it comes to, uh, an agency’s own, uh, own business, uh, advertising it, then, then you’re trying to.

It’s like you’re trying to cut corners with your own business, you know, you can’t correct you’re very strict with your with your clients but when it comes to now you you and I think even Working as a as an agency, you know helps you also understand, you know Understand your clients working on your own agencies campaigns helps you understand Where your clients are when you’re talking to them, you know, you can understand the passion they have, you know, the, the pitfalls, you know, where they, the pitfalls, the, the encounter, especially when coming up with a, with a customer avatar, you want probably to, to enlarge your, your, your age set, you want to enlarge it just so you have a bigger audience, you know, you go for, you understand your customers so well, but when you go to them, And they are not responding.

You try to let me, let me enlarge the audience a little bit just to see, you know, but when you’re talking to a client, you’re able to tell them, you know what, if this is your client and these are your clients, the most important thing is for you to spend time, you know, at first you spend time on their faces, you know, trying to get them to interact with you on all these platforms.

Yep. Once they interact with you in all those platforms, then you want to engage them through that process down the customer journey, you know, you want to work with them every step of the way. It’s easy to tell that to a client and it’s easy to execute it. For the client, but when it comes now to you and you have now to spend time creating your own campaigns that are supposed to just get people to, to interact with you, to understand who you are, to understand what’s happening, you know, what’s, what are you all about?

You know, and then getting that customer and it’s, it’s just a person who now understand, okay, you have convinced me that I have a problem because the way you are talking, it’s about, um, message and market mismatch, you know, have a message. And because you understand this, uh, marketing lingo, you are, you think.

That’s what everybody else understands, you know, instead of you coming down understanding that these, these are, if it’s SaaS business, like we are in SaaS business, uh, the first question is understand that industry yourself and understand why industry needs marketing, you know, how to communicate that with your clients, communicate, let them know that you understand the industry.

And let them know that the challenges that the industry is facing now they can listen to you because you understand their problem and you seem to be like a person who they can, they can engage with. Now, you have them, you have their attention, once you have their attention, now tell them, you have, this is the issue, this is, this is the issue that most SaaS businesses have, you have them now engaging with you, then now how do they resolve that issue, you know?

Get them involved. Yeah. Get them involved. You know that Big Bing, the E that starts with e and Heads with T, you know, . Oh, I how I That’s we’re gonna, we’ll get, we’ll get there, we’ll get there. We’ll get there. I promise. I know you’ve been busting to talk about it. I just did a podcast on it before, so I think we’re gonna, we get there.

We’ll get there. So yeah, we’ve got, yeah. Yeah. So now we’ve got a bit of context, right? Like we, we now know that it’s like we, like I think of where these agencies are falling over. Like, let’s be honest, like including ourselves, like I think. What’s really important for everyone to listen to here is that yes, at Own Denny, we have ran campaigns before with limited success for our own agency, and it takes a level of self actualization as a marketing team and a willingness to push to get the B2B generate agency client thing to work for you. Now, you know, I think this is, what’s really interesting is that there’s no shortage of online marketers selling, Hey, I’ll help you get your agency an extra hundred book calls this month. And if you don’t, if you don’t waste my time, if you, if I don’t you 3, 000 to make up for this.

And you see these outrageous. Bold offers and you’re thinking, hang on a minute, what is going on here? How can they make bold offers? And then you’re like, hang on a second, look at the terms and conditions. You must be spending 25, 000 a month on traffic. Hang on a minute. You know what I mean? So there’s a lot of crazy stuff happening in this world.

So now, like, now that we’ve kind of got acquainted to like the big problem, let’s talk about Q1. Of our financial year, which was from July all the way through to September at the end of September. Now, this was when Sam and I decided to develop a free training. We just, we developed a free online training that taught everybody about our wild success story.

With micro coffee roasters. And for those who don’t know about this massive success story, you would not believe it. We would basically, we, we almost doubled their business in a month by using a buy one, get one free strategy. And it’s not just by using buy one, get one free. We used an app-led e-commerce strategy to drive downloads.

To get people to buy a stupid amount of coffee, which would then turn into massive long term pipeline value for these guys through understanding their customer lifetime value. So we came up with the, the bold claim of, you know, the 46. 21 ROI stampede. We ran the ads and, you know, in a very short period of time.

You know, throughout that first quarter, we were doing some other things at the same time. That little campaign there generated something like 40 something leads in a very short period of time. So yeah, it generated, yeah, 43 leads in literally less than a month. We were generating leads for around about 50.

What was really interesting, and this is where, you know, we’re guilty as a marketing agency and I want to say that we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re not, what’s the word? We’re human, right? Like, that’s the most important thing to go through today was that we did literally no marketing. No paid advertising between July and August for our own agency.

It was crazy. I can’t believe we did nothing. And then we decided, launch the webinar, run the webinar, and just do it. So, what did we learn in those first three months? July and August, no marketing. What were you doing, Sam? You were down my throat, being like, Dean, stop being a perfectionist. Get the freaking thing done.

Launch. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, and this is, this is one of another thing that really hinders agencies is, uh, is looking to, to be perfect. You know, looking to be perfect, having to have something that is really. Really good. Instead of just understanding what, and this goes back to message market, you know, at that point when we are going, uh, online, I think what we should have started with is just understanding our customer avatar and what they want, you know, at that point, probably.

It is not the point, the the point where we need to go, uh, with the messaging of probably this is how much we have, we have done for this specific client, but rather this is the issue that SAS businesses have and these are some of the solutions that you could get, you know?

Yeah. And, and Sam cause that person.

Now the funny thing about this was that this campaign was just a general campaign. It was just a Facebook ads. Anyone that has a post that’s ran Facebook ads, here’s a massive case study for you and it’s a free training. And the funny thing is, we, as an agency, are proud to admit that we went, we, we sinned.

We did, we committed a cardinal sin. We didn’t even look at our avatar and be like, okay, let’s build out a really specific offer for the target market. We went for because the funny thing is we’ve really only decided to be a SAS agency this financial year, but guess what? We did back to old ways, cut the corners, broad campaign, generated a whole heap of leads because we had an extreme headline and extreme offer.

And it was a really high value action packed webinar, but we look what happened, diddly squat all these leads. Yeah. Fantastic. How many converted nada, nothing. And that was like the big Facebook demand gen campaign we had. And. What did it teach us, Sam? It taught us many things. Number one, extreme headlines work.

Number two, it teaches us that the webinar format is super crucial. And if you don’t have a whole heap of energy and time to do like an automated webinar, it’s probably not the right strategy for you. We can talk about the other types of webinars and the later thing, which will work. However, that’s what we learned.

It was a bit too, it’s a bit too much. Um, The other thing I was going to mention to people though, was because we pivoted across to Sass, we started to have our SEO to work in July and September. We started building a whole heap of content around Sass, Facebook ads, etc, etc. And as soon as we had this glorious direct response advertising field campaign website built for us, it started to really hum.

So, that was the quarter one for us. It was a bit embarrassing, like we only generated 50 leads. Our own business literally in what? How many months in three months, we’re a marketing agency for goodness sakes. We should be, it should be like, you know what I mean? We should be filling our email list with very qualified leads

in a perfect world.

What were we doing?

It’s learning. It’s called learning. It’s called learning. Yes.

That’s what we call. And then, and if, if clients are what a prospective clients are learning today, we’re much better at doing it for yourselves than us, because as you can tell at the unactualized version of our marketing agency. Cut the corners, you know, and I think this is most marketing agencies.

In fact, most marketing agencies don’t even know what they’re doing and they’re running ads and they’re like, what, what’s going to happen? So we learned some massive things that, that quarter, like it was huge. Like, and what I found as well, which was such a struggle for me was these months between July and September, like the third, that was pretty much the three months before.

My wedding day as well, which was so difficult to do. I was just so busy. So difficult. Couldn’t do anything. A lot of

stress and the pressure was we got to have something running. We got to have something, uh, running, generating these leads at least for this period. Yeah, but I think, uh, the learning, um, and this is, this is what I say.

And I think this, this one I got from, um, 48 and not 48, the, the art of war. You know, strategy, uh, you know, the time you spend, um, coming up with a strategy is key. You know, and building up a strategy is key, but when you now go to war, you know, sometimes you, you, you, you will find that, uh, you are changing your strategy on the go, you know, on the go.

So it’s very important to come and this is something that, uh, every in each business, you know, the time you spend creating a strategy is key and it’s important for you to spend that time creating that strategy. Yeah, but when it comes to execution, you must be very, very flexible to do things on the fly, you know, as, uh, when, when, when something comes up, you need to be able to change, uh, very quickly with how the market is, is, is, uh, responding.

So it’s, um, it’s important that you learn very quickly. Uh, change your strategy very quickly. So flexibility, especially when you’re starting out, uh, it’s very important, flexibility at that point. Because we also pivoted very quickly to understand, no, um, this, this is actually, we don’t have a, a good avatar.

We need to come up with a, a size avatar that we can speak to. You know, and that ability to pivot very quickly. That’s why we, we, we are having successes as we go along, you know?


A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And guys like, I just want for those people to recognize at home that this, this isn’t easy for. A standard business. This is difficult even for a marketing agency sometimes because you invest so much emotional energy into your, your marketing campaign. And you think it’s going to be freaking amazing. And it’s going to be fantastic. And you’re like, Oh yes, I’m on a winner. I’m going to make so much.

I’m going to be a multimillionaire like yesterday. And then, oh yeah, and then you just demo it. And you think that you have the greatest offer that, uh, that people will actually, you know, run to, like, you’re, you’re, you’re thinking I’m going to have, uh, people rushing to this, uh, to this offer. And, uh, the market teaches you that, uh, you need, you need to think more like us, not more like you.

I think he gets slapped upside the head and they would call it in the morning, you

know. And this is, this is also even for other clients, you know, and, and one, the other thing is, uh, And this is something that, uh, we, we were struggling with, you know, we would think that this type of color, this background would walk, you know, it’s the same message.

We love this background, but we find that this other background is the one that is performing really well. You know, you’re trying to look at, you know, you get the results using a certain background that is probably not even that the color theme that you, you have. And you know, those are the things that people hang on to.

They will hang on to colors, their brand colors and everything. But if people do not know you, if people do not know you, they do not know your brand. The biggest thing is not to go with your brand. You know, it’s not to force your brand down their throat. It’s for you to go with what they love. And this is about market and messaging.

You know, go with what they love. If they love green. And your colors are blue. Go with the green. Let them, uh, get to know you at that point, you know, because that’s what they are relating to. And then, and then now introduce your colors to the people who already know you. But if you go with your color to a To a people who don’t like that brand type of branding colors and everything.

They are not relating with it. You’re going to have such a difficult time, you know? So understanding that you want to understand where you are as a, as an agency, as a business, understand where you are in the marketplace. Are you the best known? Uh, known, uh, company or business in that industry, if not go with what people already know, you know, start with what they know that one they are going to relate to it, then move them down to now introducing your own thinking, introducing where you want to take them, introducing your solutions.

But you must start with what is already known, you know, start with what is already known in your industry. And that is key to each business. And as an agency, it’s key to understand. If you are in e commerce, understand e commerce businesses and the challenges they go through. You know, you might have very great solutions to that industry.

But introducing them without them knowing who you are, they are just going to… They’re just going to block you, you know, and they will say, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You know, we’ve been in this industry for a long, but it’s about go with what they already understand. Talk about the issues they talk about, understand them, let them feel understood.

And this is. Like this is the basic tenant of a, of a marketer, you know, people buy when they feel understood, not when they understand you, you know, people buy when they feel understood, right? So, so for you to go with your solution, trying to make people understand your solution, you’re going to have a very, very difficult time.

But if you can. Understand them, you know, let them feel understood and the way, how do you do that? How do you make them feel understood this by understanding their problem? You know, appreciate the challenges they are going through, you know? And, uh, uh, I was looking at copywriting. Copywriting is key because that’s where, you know, what’s M.

I can tell based on this, you’ve been very deep in copywriting recently. Like it’s funny, like, cause everybody, like if everyone listening to this, I speak to Sam, like two, three times a week, because we’re working aggressively, whether it be on client campaigns or when Denny’s campaigns are just talking about marketing or, or, you know, what’s happening in Sam’s family life or whatever.

And it’s so funny, like. When you’re a marketer, I think this is something which we can both probably relate to is that you’re always talking about what you’ve most recently read. And you just, that’s at the front of your mind the whole time. Like the last few weeks, Sam’s just been like, offer, challenge, offer, go, go.

Now I can tell Sam’s been reading some like how to write a good advertisement by Victor Schwab or breakthrough advertising, or I’m not sure what you’re reading recently, but I know you’ve been doing something. Cause I’m like, hang on a second. This is new.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah, actually I think I, I, I did that.

I did that cause I know what is, what was that name? There was a, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll let you know once I remember. One of the greatest thing that you want to do when you’re copywriting and also when you’re communicating is to first highlight the issue. You know, it’s the issue they already know, but just by highlighting it, they understand that you understand it.

You see, they will feel understood because if I come here and I tell you about my solution and I haven’t exactly told you, repeated back to you, your problem, you know, and that’s, that’s the first step when you’re marketing and you’re marketing to a cold audience, repeat back the problem. Yeah. Repeat back to

them the problem

they already have. Because now they understand, you understand my problem. Because they will say exactly, that’s the issue that I’m having, you know? And when they start now saying that, exactly, you get it. You know, once they start using those words about your copy and your advertising, now you’re getting, you’re, you’re now communicating, you know, you’re creating that rapport.

So when you tell them this is the issue and I understand it, and this is what I’m telling you, I can do it, I can do this for you. They will listen, you know, but if you come with, this is what I can do for you. And you haven’t really, they haven’t really understood that you understand their problem. They will be like, this guy is just another marketer trying to sell us something.

They just block, block you. And yeah. And then that’s where you start getting people who are not qualified, you know, because they are just trying to. To, to see what it is that you’re, you’re, you’re trying to, to talk about and things like that, you know, but I think at the first step should be for each marketer, highlight the customer avatar, know what exactly those people are, know exactly the problem that, you know, occupies their mind each and every day in their business and repeat that problem back to them, you know.

Problem back to them and tell them this is an issue. This is an issue that these people are having and you can do that through ads or you can do it through, you know, writing articles, SEO. You know, on your website, also organic content on social media and things like that, but highlight the problem first, you know, highlight their problem first, you understand the problem.

And it’s something you usually tell the clients, you know, it’s something that’s what you’re going to. Tell the client, but you’re not, you’re not doing it for yourself and you’re online.

So like,

what did I expect? You know? Yeah, I know, man. It’s like, like we look back right now as an agency, we look back at the things we were doing and getting, uh, those leads and, uh, leads not converting.

And you look at the messaging and you, you, you, you find, you know what? What are we thinking? You know, what are we doing this broad? What are we thinking going, doing like this? You know, but, but I think, uh, it’s very good to go through that process because then you are at a position where you can say, this is what really works.

This is, these are the steps to your, to your success.

Absolutely. So let’s, now we’ve gone through like Q1, we’ve learned some really big things here, which is number one, go through your process. Don’t take the shortcuts. Number two, when you launch a webinar, be prepared to change it. Number three, um, we, we, we were pretty happy with the fact that we got such a quick win with our participants.

Um, with our Facebook ads campaign, we ran it for a short period of time. What’s really powerful here, guys, ladies and gentlemen, was that our conversion rate on this landing page wasn’t like 20 or 30%. It was 67%. It was nuts. Matt, what did it tell us, Sam? It didn’t, and it was probably the worst conversion rate optimized page on the planet.

Like it was, it was a good page, like Tim built it. It was fantastic, but it wasn’t like a fancy, this is a high converting landing page. You know what it was? And I, this is why I’m, it’s made me a little bit more skeptical of conversion rate optimization as a, a craft because conversion, especially when it by design element, what it tells you is that there is no element, which we, I knew already, but like, it’s good for the audience to know this, there is no element that drives conversions better than a good offer.

Yeah. A great offer. It doesn’t matter. You can have the worst. Like if someone can take like a dump on your landing page and still sell things. It’s amazing. So that’s a big one. But then here’s the funny thing. If you if you have a great offer and your page is taking like a minute to load, people will wait.

You know, yeah. People for you to load so that they can get that offer, you know, so, and, and, and, and an offer. What does it take for you to create an offer? It’s understanding your avatar, you know, understanding the problem they’re facing, and then communicating that problem really effectively.

Now, that’s a probably a big, this is, this is where, this is where it gets funny because the story gets worse, ladies and gentlemen, for everyone listening in today, but there’s some amazing shining lights.

So now I’m back now I’ve gone on the honeymoon, I’m back in the, I’m back in the country and I’m getting hit from left to right with all sorts of random stuff in the business. Now, if you thought 50 leads. Over three months was bad. Try 20 over the next three months. Now, what we have to be considerate of in Australia is that the end of like pretty much your lead flow, if you’re a marketing agency will dry up in December because everyone’s thinking summer holidays, Christmas time, not really considering engaging a marketing agency before we get into it next year.

Realistically, they’re just doing everything they can to get as quick as close as they can to the fridge so they can crack open a beer. Really? That’s about it. Like they’ve, they’ve caught it for the day. But what’s really interesting here was that we’d went from 50 leads down to 20 leads, but we closed some of our biggest clients through this because of the power of high intent.

Angular SEO. Like it absolutely crushed it for our business because we knew out, we didn’t cheap out on our process with SEO. We went, we did the keyword research. We understood the avatar. We knew what they were looking for. We built content around what we were looking for. We had great internal linking.

We had really amazing structure. The copywriting was on point. It was fired up. I spent like a full month in July and August writing the landing page website, and we closed some epic deals because they were coming through the website. So like, and we in fact had our biggest month. In, I think it was in November or December, we had like one of our biggest months ever in terms of revenue.

And that’s because of the fact that, you know, you get a couple of big enterprise clients coming in the door and you know, and you understand them and you serve them. You do really, really well. But here’s the funny thing. You’re probably wondering, you’re a direct response advertising agency. You’re talking about SEO.

Like it is the most amazing thing on the planet. What happened to your direct response advertising? What happened to your Facebook ads? Guess what happened, Sam? And this is the biggest learning. I think. For everybody listening today, we didn’t run Facebook ads because I overcooked the goose. And I’m going to talk to you all about this today.

We did not run Facebook ads purely because of the fact that I was trying to rewrite a webinar, which is a full time job in itself to do it properly. And the problem is we didn’t have the lead flow to properly test the webinar. We weren’t spending enough money on that. We didn’t have, we, we, we were relying on an automated webinar.

When you start these webinars, when you have a crack at doing these things, all these free trainings, so to speak, my belief here is. That free training or that free webinar has to be live so you can get people asking questions and get to understand your customer a lot better. Don’t overcomplicate it.

Don’t do these big one hour free trainings and everyone gets sold at the end. That’s a bullshit way to go. The best way to do it is keep it scrappy, keep it nimble. Be adaptable as Sam has been saying around that, um, that art of war and just have a crack at being able to shape up shit and change things as we go.

And I think what we learned in that, that three month period up to Christmas, trying to rewrite the quote unquote webinar was this is the wrong strategy for us. We’re not spending enough. A free automated webinar is not the way to go. Would you agree, Sam?

Yeah. Yes. Yes. That’s, uh, that’s so true. That was one of the learning that we got from from that.

And I think it’s, um, it’s very, very important to have to go through, have a live, have a live event. You know, if you’re, especially if you’re starting, have, have a live event, let people attend live, speak to them, let them highlight the issues, let them ask you questions. Yes. And maybe if you do it three, four times.

If you do that webinar three, four times, then you are going to, to have refined, you are going to refine the offers, you’re going to refine the webinar to deal with the problems that people have, you know? Yep. And at that point, because you, you, your offer is your offer, and that’s exactly what you’re going to offer them.

But if it doesn’t communicate to the problem that people have, Uh, you’re not going to have much success in that, you know, but if you can have, if you can have that live for several times, you know, four or five times, understand the questions people are asking, incorporate those questions into your webinar, into your training, you know, into your free training, and then so that when you record it, and now And now you have it recorded.

You are answering all the questions that people can come up with, uh, during that recorded webinar, you know, and they will feel understood. They will feel like their issues have been addressed. And when now you are offering, when you are giving them the offer, it will be. To be easy sale, you know, to be easy sale and as opposed to coming up with a content in your own corner and Now giving that out as the perfect webinar, you know It’s not the perfection comes in actually doing the imperfect webinars several times You know, repetition, repetition, you know, repeat that webinar several, until now you, you, you are answering each and every question that people can have through the training, you know?

Absolutely. And also something else I came to understand, you know, through all that is that sometimes, sometimes the questions that people will ask you in those webinars. They’re so you can call them mundane from your point of view, as a marketer’s point of view. They are mundane. These things are, you’re supposed to understand them, but, but then that’s where you understand where your market and where your audience is in terms of our


Yes. Hang on. Let me just send it. Let me just do some like celebration. Yes. Let’s go. Let’s go. That’s so true. It’s so funny. Cause like we all think, Oh, I have to come up with something edgy and cool that I don’t understand. And it’s like, no, you don’t. Your market is so much further behind you. You’re a marketing specialist who’s tip of the spear in the agency game.

You don’t need to be bleeding edge. You just have to be you because that’s what you want. They just want

you. And I think the greatest challenge is, is, it’s, it’s there because we can talk here and talk so easily with the things that we are talking about. Yeah. But when now you are talking to your client, uh, you can speak the way we are speaking right now, you know, they don’t understand what we are talking about.

So you want to go back, you want to go back to where they are, you know, the issues they are facing, speak their language at that point, speak their language, and once now they are interacting with you, introduce your language. You know, it’s colonization and I understand colonization pretty well. So it’s about,

you know, it’s about colonizing your market, man, you know, speaking of a

true Kenyan, I understand colonization, man.

You want to go there with sweets, with sweets and blankets. And all that, the things they need, the things they love, you know, trying to, to love them, love on them, put a lot of love, understanding them and all that, you know, and then now introduce, introduce your real things later on, you know, step by step, step by step, let them understand what you’re talking about and then even building, and that’s how you build trust with them because the greatest thing right now online is trust.

There is so many people offering crappy services, you know, so each person that you’re going to get that they already have a wall, you know, they already have a wall of objections, you know, to what you are, what you are offering. So the only way you get through and you bring down that wall. It’s by, it’s by speaking their language, you know, it’s only by speaking their language, moving there, moving closer to them.

Because I usually say this, it’s, it’s your work as a marketer to actually bring down that wall. You know, if it’s one stone at a time, it’s one stone at a time, you know? And the reason why people are not converting is not because of anything. It’s just because they don’t trust you enough. Yeah, I don’t trust you enough to put money on you, you know, to put their money on you.

So your work, your work as a marketer is always to build trust. So don’t go out there quickly to get a quick, a quick client, you know, go out there to build trust with, with, with the, with the market, you know, let them trust you, let them come with their issues, you know, act like a psychologist, you know, tell them you can speak to me, you can open up, you


Now let’s, now, now, now Sam, let’s unpack your feelings. And I like it, I like it, it’s a bit like that, but it’s true. It is a bit like that, like we are, you know, like all purposes are rooted in emotions and backed up with logic. We all know this, right? But you’re so right. You know, I think we’ll get on to why we’re going to be focusing on webinars at Owens any soon and Q and A’s and ask me any things and things we want to get there.

I just, I think it would be really good though. We get back to like the overarching thing, because this is really a cool for us, you know, for us, ladies and gentlemen, everyone who’s listening today. This is amazing because we get to go through what we think worked well, what hasn’t worked well. And we get this as a snapshot in time.

It’s not only it’s available to the internet, so everyone knows what we’re all about. Everyone knows that we’re passionate about marketing. Everybody knows that you can get massive value just from learning from your mistakes. And this is like the complete dust up. Like we’ve made some absolute shocking internal marketing mistakes at Owen Denny this year.

Yes, we’ve had our biggest year ever. We’ve had less leads than ever before. But they’ve got some massive learnings and I can’t wait. We got, well, there’s some good stuff still to come. Like, come on, this is amazing. So let’s get to it. Let’s Q three. So everyone got hung over. Everyone partied too hard on New Year’s Eve, a few weeks in Australia doesn’t really pick up until.

late January because you’ve got New Year’s Eve, you’ve got Australia Day, pretty much the first month of January. It’s a write off from business. But what’s interesting, and this is what’s interesting, is that throughout the last year and the year before, we’ve had very low interest rates and the Reserve Bank of Australia has started to really dial in the notch and increase the interest rates.

So everyone’s mortgages repayments are going up and up and up. And there’s been some downward Activity in the Australian economy, right? So I’m not blaming that the reason why we’re not generating leads, but what we did notice. Is that from Australia, we have for a very long period of time in this financial year held two terms at the very top, like we’re number one for it.

We’re number one in Australia for SaaS marketing agency from an SEO perspective, and we were number one for Facebook ads agency, Melbourne. Absolute money terms. Like as a Facebook specialist in Sam and I, and the rest of the team, we’ve got Hannah and Kathleen and we’ve got Karthik and Harry and, uh, and oh man, we’ve got so many amazing people in this team, right?

And Ami and you know, like Tim will like, we’ve got this amazing team and we would ranking number one for some massive terms when we were out blasting. Like outblasting like King Kong and all the big players in the game. And what we found was that our SEO efforts, any given financial year, even with my previous website, which had very little to no direct response, advertising, prowess, or SEO, we would have had like five to ten inquiries in January.

We, in January alone, Sam, total, I’ll tell you how many organic inquiries we had. We only had two. So it really told us a lot about the economy, that you can’t rest on your laurels, you cannot rest on organic traffic. You need to be doing some form of outbound Organic. Yeah, outbound. Like you need to do a content play, you need an outbound organic play and you need a A paid, you need a paid play as well.

And we were relying on organic that month because I was still probably trying to write the webinar. Biggest mistake I’ve made personally as a direct response advertising specialist all year. Write my own webinar, didn’t have enough lead volume, not spending enough money on traffic to make it work. Idiot move.

But here we go. This is where it gets interesting. We still had massive big deals come through all these organic plays. We converted nearly everybody that came through the door in January. Then in February

we had, what is going here? I’m just trying to have a look at what we did in February. From February. It was even more dire. We only generated one lead throughout that because we were still focusing on our SEO. See, what was really interesting was. Between November through to March this year, this thing came out one.

What’s the biggest, what’s the fastest growing startup in the world right now that came out and is blowing the world up? What’s it called again, Sam?

Is it

chat? ChatGBT! Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! OpenAI has come through and it is changing the way we do everything. So, you know what’s really interesting? I personally believe instead of actually focusing on growing the business, all us marketers got way too excited.

And we just started creating shit on chat GPT and not actually used it growing the business. So what could have happened? And I, I think this is what’s happened based on the numbers and the notes I can see is that we got too addicted to pumping out SEO optimized articles. We got too addicted to organic and we could have been focusing all this energy on paid traffic, which would have actually guaranteed us a result, which were an actual specialist that, but we didn’t do it.

Chose the in the direction and we went in the wrong direction. So it was really interesting in that. And also

I think, yeah, I think also, uh, another major thing is also understanding where your market is and the messaging you’re going to give, you know, because, um, when you’re, when you’re. Channing out content for SEO, uh, you’re, you’re looking at ranking on specific terms, you know, but it’s also very important that you understand where, uh, we, or where is your market at that point.

You know, if the interest rates are going up and things are happening, probably what you should be doing is how to run a successful business in tough times, you know.


because now they are having a tough time, you know, and running that type of content to them, to the people, probably to, to your audience, the audience that has already interacted with you and testing out with the cold audience, because Because, uh, at some point, uh, thinking that your market to message, you know, thinking that you’ve cracked it is also another issue that we, we face, you know, thinking that you understand the marketing message and now it is working really well.

But something changes, economy changes, something is happening and now that message doesn’t make sense to them at that point,

you know, you have to be

dynamic. You have to be really, really dynamic. You understand, you understood it yesterday, but then you have to understand it today. You know, when things change, you have to understand it because even and something that I’ve found, you know, people are now even saying this is judge it to be, uh, content, you know, this is an open AI type of content.

And, and, and when they go through it, they’re able to pick, you know, so, and, and this is, this is something that, uh, that I’ve seen marketers now. Shifting, you know, they understand that the market is understanding the type of content that is coming out from AI. And now as a marketer for us to stand out as a marketer, you will have to go down to your specific.

Uh, experiences, you know, you have to go down to your specific experiences and that’s what’s going to set you apart is when now you can see you generate your content with AI. That’s good. AI will give you talking points, but those talking points has to be infused with your specific experiences as a, as an agency, as an individual, as a marketer, you know, you have to infuse.

Personal experiences into your content for people to read it. And and interact with it and know this is not AI type of content, you know And because AI is actually i’m loving AI by the way, i’m loving it because


for sure. It’s going what is going to happen is that it’s going everybody every lazy marketer who’s going to use it Every lazy marketer who’s going to use it It’s going to lose value because people will, will see the content and people will understand that that is from AI.

And then they will go to people who actually have experiences. Yeah. Because if I’m sharing my experiences in my content, in my videos, people will actually relate to that because it’s more personal. It’s about life experiences, my own experiences, and they will be able to trust that content more. Because here we are, we are at a point where we are now, uh, from, uh, from, uh, uh, going for attention to going for trust.

You know?

Mm. Shift. Shift.

Yep. Yeah, we, we we’re shifting now from attention because attention is being grabbed by everything to now building, to now building trust. And building trust is about building relationships. So even customer conversion journeys will change, you know, they will be a little bit longer because they will have to spend time going through a lot of AI generated content, you know, to come, to come to a point where they now understand.

This guy is talking something different. He’s talking about his own experiences. He’s talking about his own clients experiences. This is not content that is generated by AI or somebody else just writing content, you know,

and, and,

and at that point, people will start winning, you know, a person, because, you know, AI has come and it has created, uh, uh, A blue ocean that we are swimming in, a blue ocean that we are swimming in has been turned red so quickly, you know, we have to, we have to create our own blue ocean, you know, we have to create a new blue ocean before.

Before these AI content start generating personal experiences.

Yes. And you know, what’s interesting, and this is, and this is, and I think you’re onto something here, Sam. And I know we’ve got to get through to the end of this, of this, but like, before we push onto this, just let me steal the spotlight for a second.

Here is what we’re now valuing more. It’s not so much the, it’s not so much the, it’s not just trust, but it’s also personality. It sounds weird, but people are actually looking for something more than the right answers. Now they want the right answers that make them feel good. Not just like, because it’s just the way it’s pitched, the way it’s presented, the way it’s sold to you, the way you feel listening to this person on the podcast, like for instance, like we found out.

I’m going to leave for you. Yeah. Right. Like how to generate podcasts without me speaking where you’ve figured it out. We’ve got the full roadmap. I’ve mapped my voice to ai. We could just be pumping out the seven best ways to get more customers on your SaaS for less than $900 per user and have like an AI automated thing.

It’d be awful, but it’s the stories like the AI’s not living your stories. You have got your stories, you’ve got your experiences. You are uniquely human. It’s your

what I want. It’s your ability to laugh at your own failures, your ability to laugh on your own jokes, you know, and, uh, and you know, you know, there is, there is a personality, no matter how this AI, how intelligent they become, they will not, they will not be able to, to craft the emotions on, on the go, you know.

They will not be able to come up with emotions on the go. So, so at that point, that’s where humans will win. And that’s where the person who’s able to create that will be the person who creates a blue ocean for themselves, because once AI can do it, that becomes an, a red ocean for me. That’s what I’m seeing.

If an AI can do it, that’s a red ocean. And now you need to come up with something else that they can do. Because if, if an AI can do it, everybody can do it because they just need to, they just need to pay for that. You know, they just need to pay for that platform. And then you’re out of business, but. It’s about the people.

It’s also about the people who are behind, you know, creating that content behind the AI, because I think it’s, it’s, it’s an important tool to use as a marketer. You go to the open AI, create your content there, but then infuse it with your own personal experiences, you know, things that are unique to you.

And those are the things that are going to help you win.




Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠


2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠


We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

Have LinkedIn Ads Overtaken Facebook Ads

Have LinkedIn Ads Overtaken Facebook Ads For B2B Demand Generation?

In this podcast, Dean Denny, host & founder of Owendenny Digital, discusses the exciting developments in LinkedIn advertising for SaaS companies and B2B organizations. He highlights the decreasing cost of traffic on LinkedIn compared to Facebook, making it a lucrative platform for marketers.

Dean advises adapting the tone and content of ads to suit LinkedIn’s audience and recommends rotating creatives for better results. He emphasizes the potential for lower costs per lead on LinkedIn and encourages listeners to take advantage of this opportunity before competition increases.

Top 5 Lessons you will learn from this podcast:

1) The cost of traffic on LinkedIn is decreasing compared to Facebook, making it a more affordable advertising platform for SaaS companies and B2B organizations.

2) LinkedIn’s targeting options are powerful and allow marketers to reach their key decision-makers and avatars more easily compared to Facebook.

3) Advertisers need to adjust their tone of voice and offers when transitioning from Facebook to LinkedIn, as not all strategies that work well on Facebook will be effective on LinkedIn.

4) Rotating creatives and aggressively testing different ad formats on LinkedIn can lead to better results and engagement.

5) Despite the initial investment required, running LinkedIn ads can yield lower costs per lead and higher lead quality compared to Facebook, especially in the B2B space with less competition from other advertisers.


[00:02:56] Marketing costs rising

[00:04:23] Cost of Facebook Ads Dropped

[00:05:46] Media buying landscape flipped: Try LinkedIn Ads!

[00:07:00] Accelerate with LinkedIn Ads.

[00:08:26] Target key decision makers with LinkedIn.

[00:10:13] Change tone, rotate ads

[00:11:47] Invest in LinkedIn Ads for B2B.


Hey everyone. And welcome back to open source growth, your leading destination for all things, direct response advertising, growing your SaaS business and marketing strategy. My name is Dean Denny. I am the founder and director of Owendenny Digital Australia’s top-ranked SaaS marketing agency. And I cannot wait to go through today’s podcast with you. Why? Well, we’re pretty excited here at the agency because we’re starting to see some very exciting numbers pop through, and it’s not for our own accounts, even though we are doing this test right now, inside our own campaigns. And just for context, it’s the 26th of June 2023 and we’re right in the thick of it. When it comes to end of financial year here in Australia. Now the reason why I want to do this podcast today is to mark a point in time.

Here’s what’s been really interesting for us recently. At Owendenny, we do market a lot of SaaS companies. We work with a lot of B2B organizations, especially, you know, those seven to eight figure, um, services companies who are really looking for some aggressive scale. Um, and where they go to, when it comes to, you know, top line growth marketing strategy and coordinating everything from, you know, the head of marketing through to the team members, helping them work with our agency, providing them with the demand generation services and the SEO strategy, the whole name it, you know, we’ve, we’re across a lot of things at Owendenny digital.

So, um,

Why we want to talk about today is that we’ve been running tests internally and we have been running tests externally. And what we mean by that is that our clients are participating in our signature, our IT process, which is the rapid iterative testing process where we determine the best means of generating gated content leads or marketing qualified leads.

We determine the best process of generating sales qualified leads through either content or, um, the light sales offerings. We also determine the best platforms, the best creative angles, the best messaging. The best. Um, big ideas in order to get growth marketing to work for their business. So we do this with SaaS companies with online brands.

Um, services companies, very, it’s a very B2B thing that we do, and we do it exceptionally well. But what’s really crazy here is that in the context of one of our clients, one of our enterprise clients. We’ve been doing this both on Facebook and we’ve been doing it on LinkedIn. And we’re starting to see some very, very exciting, uh, things emerge. Now, as many of you would be listening to this podcast you’re probably a devoted marketer. You know what you’re doing, or you may have a pretty good understanding of what you’re doing. You’re running Facebook ads, uh, your, you know, You’re writing copy, your developing creatives, you might be doing it with the aid of chatGPT and Canva. You may be shooting short form videos on your phone, or if you’ve got a professional videographer that you’re working with.

Um, your, you know, obviously developing particular offers, particular frameworks. Um, you could be just running traffic directly to your website. Like this doesn’t really matter too much about that today, but what we are starting to see. Right here right now in this snapshot of time. Is the cost of traffic on LinkedIn is starting to pivot.

As you may be aware if you’re running Facebook ads right now, a thousand dollars on Facebook ads that you spend five years ago would be the equivalent of spending $5,000 on Facebook ads today. What we are trying to articulate here is that, the way facebook bills is based on not the number of clicks you generate, but it’s based on the number of impressions they serve and what we’re starting to see here. And it’s really quite fascinating this journey, is the cost of link of Facebook ads, say five years ago, you may have been only paying, you know, $8 to $12 per thousand impressions. In the B2B vertical from a lot of the campaigns we are running, whether they be conversion-based campaigns or they be lead form campaigns. So strictly demand generation based or lead generation based campaigns.

We’re starting to see the CPMs be a lot higher. Than our typical LinkedIn. Campaigns now this is super exciting. See, if you spoke to me about five years ago around about LinkedIn ads or spoke to any marketer, they would have said, don’t do it. It’s a waste of time. There’s not enough users. The cost per thousand impressions will blow your socks off. You’re going to be spending $25 a click. You’re going to be spending $150 per 1000 impressions.

It’s going to be hard to do. You need to spend at least $8,000 a month to get it to work. Nowadays that is not the case. Just last month, we’ve been running ads on LinkedIn. And we’re starting to see that our CPMs are cost per thousand impressions have dropped below $40 for high quality, high interest, wildly motivated b2B leads with C suite stake holders. It’s down to $40 per CPM. It’s gone from 120 down to 40 where we’re seeing Facebook go from eight to $12. For conversion-based campaigns and now that’s sword all the way above. 60 to $80 per thousand impressions. We’re talking about a complete flip in your media buying landscape.

So what does this mean? If you are a media buyer, or if you’re at CMR and you’re thinking, hang on a second, we’re spending 10 grand a month or $25,000 a month in Facebook ads haven’t even scratched the surface with LinkedIn. And now you’re thinking, hang on a second, there’s an opportunity. This is really, really cool. We can do something. We can make this work.

Uh, well, Ladies and gentlemen, it is the time for you to give it a crack. Now. I’m not going to go too much into the details of how LinkedIn is a different platform. Because it is it’s undeniable with respect to Facebook ads, but LinkedIn, as a platform, by the way, I’m not motivated to say this. I’m not paid on endorsed by the LinkedIn ads platform here. This is totally unbiased.

Unfettered views here. That with LinkedIn right here right now. You can start to hit the accelerator where your competitors are spending more and more to acquire customers. So if you have a proven funnel and you have a proven landing page with a proven sales process, you just need high quality traffic hitting your landing pages. Not only do you need higher quality traffic into your landing pages, you need the volume of traffic hitting your landing pages.

So if you’re fed up and sick of spending. Ending seven to eight, even $25 a click on Facebook just to drive a higher quality B2B prospect to a landing page. Changing your media mix from say 80% Facebook. It’s down to 60% Facebook and then putting a sampling budget or a testing budget towards LinkedIn.

Um, ads, maybe the smartest move you do all week, all year. All decade. Because of the fact that we’re starting to see such an improvement in the platform, not only from an artificial intelligence targeting perspective. They’ve changed the way they buy media. It’s not. A combination of impressions and clicks. It’s now just impressions just like Facebook. So you can really make a very easy comparison.

The targeting options, they are very, very powerful. It’s very easy to target your key decision maker. Or your, you know, your key avatar, very, very simply. It’s not like Facebook whose everyone’s providing you with a fake name or a fake address or a fake whatever. And it’s confusing the living daylights out of the Facebook ad platform, even though it’s very good at targeting.

LinkedIn has so much more nuanced B2B prowess nowadays. And the only thing that’s removed us advertisers from getting in the game and having a crack with LinkedIn is the cost of traffic that’s coming down. More users are hitting the platform. You can run ads, you can target people. It’s all really freaking powerful.

So. Guys, I’m really excited about this. If, if you do have a brand and if you are running LinkedIn ads, This is the time to double down because if your competitors are on Facebook and they’re spending money and they’re not getting anywhere with it. Just go for it. Like just absolutely knuckle down. If you can double your spend do it. It is the time it’s time to go. Especially when they were coming into a recession. Everybody.

We know historically that the best startups, the best growth stories come at. Uh, we’ll come out. No. Those best startups are those who manage to get through the sock of the recession and explode out the back end. And the way you can do that is by aggressively marketing throughout the recession. That is what’s going to keep you powerful, keep you strong.

And get you to grow. So. If you’re going to consider it, this is the time to do it.

Now, word of warning. If you are just a Facebook advertiser or a, or a founder, who’s running the Facebook ads. And you’re trying to get yourself to go across to LinkedIn. Believe it or not, you do have to change your tone of voice. Some offers will not work on LinkedIn. We’ve had.

Our own experiences with LinkedIn. We’re offers where we were generating marketing, qualified, lead off to marketing qualified lead for less than $10. A contact. Have fallen flat on LinkedIn. So just because something works really, really well on Facebook doesn’t mean it’s always going to work well on LinkedIn.

The other thing you need to consider with LinkedIn, just because of the fact that there’s not as much optics on rate on frequency. There’s plenty of optics on impressions that there’s not that much optics on reach. You don’t get those beautiful frequency numbers that you can honestly appraise the power of your advertising. So what we have found is working well with LinkedIn ads is rotating your ads aggressively. I’m not talking about changing offers aggressively because at the end of the day, you need to give something some life to see whether it’s going to work or not.

But changing out your creatives, that means changing your copies, changing your, um, creatives. Stopping our video formats for carousels and carousels for images. Um, really go aggressively there. The other thing we’re starting to see as well, is that. You need to be spending at least, and this is where it can be cost prohibitive.

You need to be spending at least $80 per campaign per day to see any meaningful results. Now. What does that translate to? Well, if you’re not willing to invest $4,000 a month into LinkedIn, you may just be spinning your wheels. But. There is hope because at the other end of the journey, What we’re starting to see are the cost of LinkedIn ads. Once you have the campaign dialed in much lower. We’re not talking. $80 per lead on Facebook. We’re seeing the same thing happen. On LinkedIn for $65-$70. We’re seeing the lead quality be better. If not. Much better than what we’re seeing on Facebook for a lot of our big B2B accounts right now. And. The best part about it. There’s a whole lot less competition. There’s a whole lot less R&D in this space, because the best advertisers haven’t caught around to doing it. And here’s the best part. You’re just competing with other B2B advertisers who really don’t know what they’re doing on the platform either. Whereas what you can see. On Facebook, is that you’re not only competing against B2B advertisers for the same?

Target market you’re actually going to be competing for. That same screen time against other direct to consumer brands and governments and all sorts of stuff that are marketing to those same people. So guys, if you are thinking about running LinkedIn ads, this is the time to do it. If you can’t afford an agency to do it, get onto YouTube and go for it.

If you’re looking for someone to coach you on this, find a good marketing coach that has experience here. It will be a lot more cost effective than working with a marketing agency. But if you are looking for someone. To take your demand generation by the collar. And get it to really thrive for you, or just wanting an honest appraisal of what you’re already doing.

No strings attached. We can help you. We are a direct response advertising agency, Owendenny digital we’ve been working with hundreds of brands over the past five years, getting them to grow and thrive online through the power of Facebook ads, Google ads, LinkedIn ads. Marketing strategy and direct response advertising.

Think Gary Halbert think Gary Benson venue, think David Ogilvy and match that with Neo from the matrix, plus a whole heap of media buying geekiness. And your SaaS company. That’s what you get with Owendenny digital. So if you are interested, Why don’t you just go book a free 10 minute chat with me where we can go through you, what you’re trying to achieve and see whether there’s a fit for us to help you believe me. We do turn people away. So I’m one of those crappy sales calls. It’s unfiltered, raw, straight up marketing and personal growth advice.

And we may even be able to help you at the end. So then we can talk about next steps. So if you are interested in running LinkedIn ads, you don’t know where to start. Why don’t you go book a free 10 minute call, hit the link at the very bottom of this podcast. And we can take it from there.

But guys, get onto it. Cease this opportunity. It’s not going to last long. The AI window of opportunity is starting to close. This one has just opened. Get in there before it’s too late. My name’s Dean. I hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of open source. Um, growth and. If I don’t hear from you, I hope you’d be well. I’d go about executing this today. I’ll talk to you all soon. Cheers. For now.




Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠


2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠


We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠


B2B Email Nurturing Sequences Aren’t Enough


In this podcast, Dean discusses the challenges of email marketing for B2B companies in today’s digital landscape. He highlights how the marketing world has evolved over the past decade, with increased costs per click, the need for direct response advertising, and the difficulty of generating and nurturing leads.

Dean emphasizes that traditional email nurturing sequences are no longer as effective, as people have become more cynical about leaving their information and are overwhelmed by email marketing. He suggests implementing multiple strategies to improve email marketing, including offering additional value upon download, remarketing through various channels, and hosting live webinars or Q&A sessions to engage and build trust with prospects.


By listening to this episode, you will learn:

1) Embrace the ever-changing landscape: From skyrocketing costs per click to the need for direct response advertising, it’s crucial to stay on top of these shifts and adapt our strategies accordingly.

2) Crack the code of lead generation: It’s time to think outside the box and discover innovative ways to generate and nurture leads that truly resonate with our audience.

3) Go beyond the ordinary, offer extraordinary value: Whether it’s a free resource, an exclusive discount, or personalized content, giving your audience something valuable upon download or interaction sets you apart and boosts engagement.

4) Expand your horizons, tap into multiple channels: Don’t limit yourself to a single channel; instead, explore remarketing strategies across different platforms to reach your potential customers where they are most receptive.

5) Forge real connections, build unwavering trust: Hosting live webinars, interactive Q&A sessions, or even personalized video messages allows you to actively engage with your prospects on a personal level.



[00:00:00] Marketing changed: email nurturing sequences.

[00:05:35] Email marketing harder than ever.

[00:09:16] Grow database, nurture leads, webinars, multiple measures.

[00:11:35] Remarket with custom audiences.

[00:13:44] Live events build audience trust.

[00:18:32] Grow business with digital marketing.


Hey everyone. 

It’s Dean here and welcome to open source growth. I am your host. And today we’re not going to be talking about anything, direct response advertising. Related specifically. In fact, we’re going to be talking about email nurturing sequences and particularly email nurturing sequences. For B2B companies now. 

This is an interesting one because. Over the past 10 years, the world of digital marketing has dramatically changed. It doesn’t matter if you’re a SaaS company, an accounting firm. Are you a real estate agent that. Offers, you know, commercial real estate. Or are you a conveyancer or a lawyer? Look. 

The world we lived in 10 years ago from a marketing perspective is so aggressively different to the world we live in. Now we used to pay 30 cents per click in the two thousands. We’re now paying upwards of $30 per click, depending on the vertical you’re in. We. Used to just have simple. Our websites, which are like brochures. Now they don’t convert anymore. You need to now have a direct response advertising influenced. 

Website with hard hitting sales copy and great offers and multiple buyer journeys and paths and things like that. You know, we used to just be able to generate phone calls by asking people, well, you know, call now for a free quote. Now we have sophisticated. Um, you know, gated content offers, whether they be free checklists or free trainings or whatever. Um, and we now segment our office out based on buyer intent instead of simply. Asking people to leave their. Uh, you know, their contact details. 

What’s also really interesting too, is that we now live in this world where we. Um, more and more cynical of leaving information with businesses because they know they’re going to get absolutely dominated from an email marketing perspective. It’s really crazy. The world we live in, isn’t quite the same. And, you know, just to make things even tougher to, as a paid traffic specialist, we understand the new, the nuances and the unique pain points that come from running. Uh, trafficking an iOS 14 world where, you know, being able to track end to end your leads that come through your Facebook ads, matching the conversion information against what you’re seeing in your Stripe terminal or your Thrivecart terminal or Shopify or whatever. Your, your, you know, Your operating system is. To manage your numbers. In your business. 

Like it’s not as easy as it once was. And something that’s a whole lot harder nowadays. Is. The world of not only generating the lead, the generating, the lead is more costly. It’s not necessarily harder to do. But what’s more difficult nowadays. This is being able to take a gated offer lead. So whether that would be a gated content lead, which we would call a marketing qualified lead, and taking that person from marketing qualified all the way through to sales qualified. Which. 

Basically in layman’s terms. Means taking someone from mildly interested to very interested and willing to step onto a call with a sales specialist or a. Um, practitioner. Now. This is tough. Like it is really, really tough to get right. Because. The problem that we’re all finding ourselves in as B2B marketers, is that. We’re looking to get people into our database. So we go about setting off a whole heap of. Um, Marketing initiatives, which. Get us thinking about, okay, cool. How do we build out the size of our database? Oh, okay, cool. Let’s build out some. Free. Um, resources, which we know our target customer may like, we then segment those. Um, free resources based on buyer intent. 

For instance, he may have a, just say you’re a law firm and you offer B2B. Um, legal services to small business owners. Um, so your first thing may be like, you know, The ultimate guide to structuring. Uh, you know, do the ultimate guide to structuring your business, uh, for. I don’t know for sales companies or whatever. So that may be a very high. Like a very low. Um, commercial intent, but very valuable knowledge that the target customer may want. And then, you know, you may develop at a second gated offer or another marketing qualified lead, which may be all about. Oh, okay. Cool. Um, you know, You know, The 70 must ask questions. For every. For every law firm that you will. That you will interview. Or something along the lines of that, which would then give. The the, the law firms legal, our marketing team and understanding of like, okay, people are downloading this. They are more likely to engage and are more likely to spend money with us.

I mean, you couldn’t, you could pretty much call them a sales qualified lead instead. Or that in between point between sales qualified, our marketing qualified. Which I’m yet to figure out exactly what that is. But. Look. That doesn’t really matter. The point I’m trying to get to today is that email marketing is so much harder to get it to work than ever before. I remember. Talking to people. Oh, how many years ago? Like five years ago when they got started in digital marketing five years or 10 years before me that when they were running their email marketing campaigns, they would have open rates north of 60%. It was almost reading. Personal. Emails and that, you know, every email was read in their inbox. And. Back in the, you know, those glory days of digital marketing, it was the wild west. And, you know, those campaigns would absolutely go. Go ballistic. 

People would be generating so many, so many leads. People, every email would be read. Um, Every email would be not only read, but read with emotion and intensity and real rigor. Unlike the way we go through emails now. We never used to skim. We used to read emails line by line. Now we skim through them. Now, and that’s just. Not just your emails. That’s there. My emails that everyone’s emails. This is what we’re dealing with. Even though we could be the best copywriters in the world and best direct response advertiser in the world., people are skimming their emails, you know, which means that the work that you’re doing as a. Marketer or you’re doing as a founder or a sales person or whoever you are in the growth team. It’s getting more and more difficult to be successful nowadays. 

So. Now that there’s a whole lot more competition in your prospect’s inbox. And so many other people are now competing for your, or for their attention. And you’re one of them. What’s now starting to happen. Is that there are a lot of thought leaders like Ryan Deiss from digital who have always communicated. Hey, if you get, but if you generate leads by using a free report or a lead magnet, That you can email market. Them and nurture them and warm them up. To jumping on a call with you. Now. If you did this five years ago, work like clockwork, but users are now getting privy to it. What’s a really interesting, um, test for you to do as a marketer or as a business owner or a founder. Is to go into your inbox? Oh no, no. So go into your MailChimp account or your active campaign or your get response. Um, your EDM, um, your. Whatever supports your email marketing. Right. 

And then have a look at your sequences that you’ve set up now. Inside your email sequences. If you see more and more people. Um, leaving your list after that very first email. It’s it tells you a couple of things, not only about how good your emails are, but however, it also will tell you the nature of the game and having a look at that on subscribed right off the first email over the last five years. That’s where, like, you know, the writing’s on the ball here. Because. I hate to say it. Ladies and gentlemen, people are waking up to those email marketing newsletters. They are just like, they, they, they can see a nurturing sequence. They can see themselves getting hammered with emails. It’s all. Very very tough. 

And if you have relied in your business on generating a bulk. Database growth. Your days are. Your days are numbered. Um, if you have totally relied, not only on growing that database, but using these email sequences to nurture and get them onto sales calls. See, where we are taking things at the agency, and I want to let you know what we’re doing, so you’re able to get across it and you can see how were starting to market to our. Um, the clients as we are essentially a B2B marketing agency in many ways. Yes, we are a SaaS focused agency. Most SaaS companies are B2B focused and because that’s the case, um, We have to eat our own cooking. So what we’re now doing internally and what I recommend you to do. Is to not only evaluate your lead quality, see where they’re unsubscribing along your emails, nurturing sequences, especially those who opt in for marketing qualified offers. 

What we’re now looking at doing and implementing is a fortnightly or even a weekly webinar. I’ve always been very bearish on webinars. I’ve never really enjoyed them myself. But it’s just more and more evident nowadays that as we build the size of our own database, this chasm will exist and it will remain to exist in our database and as it will for yours. That taking your. Target customer from. Remotely interested to, I want to work with you is that gap is, is widening and it’s widening at a rate of knots. So, if you are looking to make the most of your database, looking at them, looking to make the most of your email list and wanting to activate them and to get them into the fold of your business, you have to do more than just send them an email and ask them to book a call. It’s no, it’s not good enough. It’s not going to work. And it only really works. And you’ve got extreme scale. 

We’re talking a hundred thousand, a million people on your list. To get this to grow. So what we are recommending to our clients as we are to you today is that don’t look at your B2B email nurturing sequences as your. Hail Mary throw, which will always work in fact. What we are recommending you now is to do a multiple. Of things like two, three measures to fix things. Number one as soon as people download. That guided offer. Offer them more value. So for instance, if they’re downloading their first ebook list, If they’re downloading an ebook, give them a secondary free training on the back end of that. Simultaneously, if they are downloading that ebook ensure that you are marketing them again, not only below the line within the email sequences, but also above the line with your Facebook and your Google and your LinkedIn ads. 

So remarket them by segmenting out your list by your marketing qualified lead leads. Okay, great. Create custom audiences based on this and run Google ads, display, um, run. LinkedIn ads run Facebook run. Instagram run YouTube, remarketing ads, run them all to ensure that people know that you exist. A B. They are starting to see all the other things you do. And see. And once they understand what you actually do and how you can actually help them. Start. Uh, asking the questions and really by understanding, you know, your three stage or your five stage marketing funnel, depending on the model that you’re using in your. Um, your business. 

We use a three-stage because we like simplicity. You know, are they in the awareness phase? Are they in the evaluation phase? Are they in the conversion phase or the activation phase? And no. The questions that they ask at each of those phases and craft content to remarket your audience with this. Along the line. Because at the end of the day, There needs to be top. Um, there needs to be top. You know, above the blind remarketing and below the line remarketing. Yeah. Your sequences are still going to run. But then he comes like the third thing. The third initiative needs to have, not only do you need to provide them with more free training or more. Free resources. Not only do you have to remarket them both via email and via paid social or paid Google or whatever. 

You also need to develop. A. Kind of a hybrid. Of being able to speak with a company representative at scale. And this is where we are saying like a free Q&A every week. Where, you know, or an AMA event, or like an ask me anything event. Is going to be super crucial in the formation of an audience that loves you. A guy who does this exceptionally well is Chris Walker from refined labs. He is an absolute beast in this area and. I would totally recommend you check out his weekly. Um, calls that he obviously once did, or is still doing today. 

So. Again, Um, having that weekly or fortnightly live event enables you to pull, you know, prospects together or interested parties. You work with them? One-on-one. You know, group scale setting. You’re able to answer their questions or you’re able to teach a very tactical, very actionable, um, you know, item every single week. That’s going to be super, super valuable for you. And once you do this, And once you start working through these like live webinars, or if you’re running, you know, five for free, you know, Facebook live events and you’re emailing us to get them on there. It gives them that next opportunity to be able to ask questions with you. And it keeps them that opportunity to. Not only feel as if you’re a real person, but it also enables them to see the human side of you. And that. Obviously help, you know, Establish some proof and some credibility in what you do. 

So it’s one thing to be marketing, like all day long and being able to have these canned responses ready to go based on like chat GPT or whatever the hell you’ve written your emails with, but being able to do it on the fly reflexively. At scale with people around you. That’s there’s some real magic there. And, you know, there’s also some additional magic with these live. Webinars formats too. And let me put it to you this way. You’ve get to create a whole heap of content, which you can chop up, splice up, do whatever the world you want with it and turn it into your remarketing ads or even your awareness ads to build out your personal brand or even your company brand. Like there’s some real power here. So. If you’re thinking about, okay, cool. Do I need an email sequence to be successful here? Yes, you probably do. But you need to understand what that email sequence is it meaning to achieve? Are you generating a whole heap of low quality marketing qualified leads. Okay, great. So that sequence, instead of trying to get people from downloading the checklist right away and going straight onto a call. Probably an idea. 

What’s more ideal probably going from. That marketing qualified leads. Um, you know, that low quality marketing qualified lead, the checklist, nurturing them to get onto a free webinar, which is truly exciting. Or an ask me anything, call whatever you want to call it, which doesn’t feel like. At pre-canned sales pitch, right. That is, that would be exciting. Oh, okay. If someone downloads a, say a free resource, which has commercial intent. Yeah. Great. That’s where you go about selling them. Via email or. Persuading them via email. To jump on a call with you. But just remember they can jump on that. Ask me anything call too, especially if you’ve got any objections or any thoughts in regards to how things work, how much things cost, blah, blah, blah. So that would work out really, really well, too. 

Do you do your email marketing in conjunction with a solid paid social remarketing strategy? Absolutely. You used re-targeting ads use Facebook ads, LinkedIn ads, Google ads, YouTube, whatever. To follow your people around the internet with the right content at the right time, based on where they sit in the customer journey, are they. Um, Where are they in the sales funnel? Where are they in the database? Um, make sure you have content for them at that particular journey. So. At that particular point in the journey. So they are. You know, fully nurtured and they know that they’re getting the right information from you when you get an opportunity to tell them, you know what I’m saying? 

So. Make that happen. That’s really, really crucial. Will this impact your email nurturing sequence. If you go about setting up these. Live webinars with exciting content that you have a solid promise or an amazing opportunity to ask me anything, will that improve the performance of my email nurturing sequences? And it’s a ground resounding. Yes. Why is that? You’ve actually got exciting shit to talk to your list about. That they really want. That’s truly impactful and meaningful. So. If you are, you know, considering, okay, how do I take my MQL and turn them into high quality SQLs? This may be the best. Podcasts are listed. Listen to all day. Because it’s not just about relying on your emails, nurturing sequences anymore. It’s about. Creating a more than that. Creating live events, remarketing through social and paid social and having a small percentage of your budget dedicated to this every single month. 

So when you say, Hey, we’ve got $10,000 a month to spend on Facebook ads, have a thousand dollars and remain in the remarketing minimum. Even up to $3,000 worth of your budget, the 30% should be on remarketing. Through the funnel without a doubt. Because if you can take these. Ideas on board from today and implement it in your business. You’re going to make your sales team a whole lot happier because at the end of the day, Marketing role is to get the prospects into the room sales role is to turn the prospects into purchases. So. Again, the better you do marketing, the easier it is for sales and the easier it is for sales, the easier it is for you to hit your growth, your growth goals. So I hope you’ve learned something here today, guys. Um, you know, this is a really hot button issue in all of marketing right now, especially with us likely to come into a recession in the next few months, we’re going to be doing some really interesting things. Throughout those few months, because there is a massive opportunity. On the horizon, which I can’t wait to reveal with you all very soon. Um, but guys, if you liked this episode, please do share it with your friends. 

Don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast. If you get value from it, we publish two to three episodes every single week. On the perils and the power plays of growing your SAS company, your B2B company, your online brand on line with the power of digital advertising, direct response copywriting, and a whole lot of marketing strategy. I’m your host Dean, Denny founder and director of Owendenny digital Australia’s top-ranked SAS marketing agency. And if you like what we do and you want to engage us. Hit. The show notes and hit the link to book a 10 minute chat with me, more happy to discuss and figure out. Who you are, what you’re trying to do and how we may be able to help you. 

Hope this episode has been well for you. And I’ll speak to you when I speak to you. God bless stay well. 




Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠


2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠


We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠


Don’t Build Your Customer Acquisition Funnel Until You Get Your MQL Situation Right

In this podcast, Dean Denny, the founder of Owendenny Digital, discusses the importance of generating high-quality marketing qualified leads. He emphasizes the need for qualitative analysis when evaluating the effectiveness of gated content offers and lead magnets. By matching leads to LinkedIn profiles, company information, and industry verticals, businesses can gain valuable insights into the customer journey and tailor their content creation process accordingly.

Dean highlights the significance of optimizing lead quality over quantity and recommends investing in higher-quality leads to outperform competitors. He concludes by encouraging listeners to review their CRM data and leverage the information to strengthen their marketing strategies and funnel optimization.


In this podcast, you will learn:

1) Qualitative analysis matters: Evaluating the quality of marketing qualified leads is crucial for successful campaigns. Matching leads to LinkedIn profiles, company information, and industry verticals provides valuable insights into their stage in the customer journey.

2) Optimize lead quality over quantity: Focusing on high-quality leads rather than solely on volume yields better results. Investing more in acquiring higher-quality leads can give businesses a competitive edge.

3) Tailor content creation: Analyzing lead data allows businesses to refine their content creation process. Understanding what leads are looking for and adjusting messaging accordingly can improve lead quality and engagement.

4) Don’t overlook the customer journey: Assessing where leads are in their business journey is essential. Sending leads through a funnel that aligns with their stage of readiness and needs ensures better conversions and customer retention.

5) CRM data is invaluable: Leveraging CRM data provides valuable information for optimizing marketing strategies. Tracking leads, analyzing their characteristics, and using that knowledge to refine campaigns can lead to more effective customer acquisition and retention.



[00:01:16] Generate quality MQLs with numbers.

[00:03:25] Track leads, measure cost, improve quality.

[00:06:47] Qualitative analysis of leads.

[00:09:34] Improving lead quality through research.

[00:10:52] Gated content strategy

[00:12:09] Grow business through direct response advertising.


Hey everyone. How are you going? This is open-source growth. My name is Dean Denny. I’m the founder and director of Owendenny Digital, Australia’s leading digital marketing agency for software companies, online brands, and so much more where we take the best of direct response advertising, media buying, and marketing growth strategy to help software companies achieve T2D3 growth and a whole lot more. And today, guys,

I’ve got a really cool little hack that you can use inside of your business before you go out and build a full stack customer-getting machine. Now, this is a really interesting one, because right now at Owendenny digital, we are testing a handful of gated content offers. So, if you have landed on our website recently, you will see that we are running LinkedIn ads checklists, Google ads checklists, Facebook ads checklists, um, SaaS user growth guides. We’ve got a whole lot of gated offers.

That we are testing with our market. And the reason behind the fact that we’re testing all these different gated offers is because we want to understand how can we generate as many marketing qualified leads as possible that not only provide us with great volume, but also great quality. Now a lot of people, especially the digital marketers who do this solely by numbers, they play the quantitative game. If you are running.

Marketing qualified lead campaigns or. You know, PDF campaigns or gated offer campaigns. Anything that enables a user to exchange their contact information for a part of a resource or a document or a free training or a guide you’ll essentially generating marketing qualified leads who may not have any form of commercial or transactional intent with your business at this point.

Now, what’s really interesting here though, is that. If you are your typical direct response, advertising media buyer, you’re just going to be look at the quant, which is the quantitative. Now what does quants mean? Quantitative means the numbers. How many downloads? How many clicks, what was the conversion rate of clicks to downloads or clicks to subscribes? And how can we optimize for this number?

Now there is a huge challenge in the software vertical, which we experience every single day, where people are constantly chasing the numbers and they’re painting their SaaS companies by numbers every single day. They’re just thinking, oh, well, if we get more free trials, it means we’ll get more users because on average, you know, 3% of free trials turn into paying users, they have a lifetime value of this and yeah, that’s all great.

Like you do need to understand the quantitative side of your customer acquisition machine. But where we are seeing the greatest value. In developing a full stack customer getting machine, which takes people from marketing qualified. To sales, qualified through a series of nurturing emails and workshops and live events, et cetera, et cetera, through to jumping on to sales calls throughout and through to becoming clients who provide you with not just a great client agency relationship, but also a great lifetime value for your business.

See the challenge is that if you’re going by quant, You’re going to think. Oh, okay, great. Everyone who downloads X lead magnets, going to provide us with so many more deals because we’re able to get them into the database faster and it’s going to be cheaper and it’s going to be great. But as I’ve said on previous podcasts, that’s not always the case because if you are constantly chasing low cost marketing, qualified leads, your quality, not quantity. Your quality of these leads is going to drop over time.

So. For instance, what we are doing at Owendenny is we’re testing multiple campaigns, but with every single lead that comes through the door, and I’m not going to reveal what lead magnets working the best. But you can read between the lines here with our existing campaigns. We are looking at. The volume of leads that are coming through, but also each and every person who signs up for those marketing qualified lead offers now.

This is really simple. The fastest, the quickest and dirtiest way to do this is to number one, ensure that you have a CRM. So if you’re generating marketing qualified leads, we use HubSpot. We swear by the thing. Make sure that your leads are coming and getting plumbed into a HubSpot CRM or something similar. So you can go about tracking your costs, the number of contacts generated, and then you can have all your contact information there. And then.

The next thing we’re doing is we’re matching those names. And those domains to the appropriate country, we’re naming, we’re matching them to the appropriate industry, the appropriate vertical, the appropriate business name, the company, their position. And that’s where we start to see a very interesting picture because of the fact that with our marketing qualified lead campaigns, we’re able to see where they are as, uh, in their business, how big their companies are, where they live, what industries are they in? What sort of leads are they chasing?

Based on the way we’ve crafted our marketing qualified leads. We’re able to get a very good understanding of where these people are. In their business. So this is why it’s really crucial to test your quality here of your marketing qualified leads that you are generating, because if you don’t do that,

What’s going to happen is that you may get all the way down the line, sending hundreds of thousands of emails out every single week to try and get people onto whether it be a free workshop or generating sales calls. But if they’re at the wrong stage of the customer journey, based on the qualitative analysis you’ve done.

It’s going to be game over. They. Not only being the wrong part of the customer journey, but they may be. In the wrong type of business, they may be in the wrong size of business. They may not even be close to engaging you for their services, or it might mean. They’re not be close to engaging you or to signing up with your software because it doesn’t really suit them there. And then, so this is kind of like a twofold lesson here. Number one, when you launch your marketing qualified, lead based campaigns for your gated content to generate.

Volume to build out your database, be sure to do the qualitative analysis. Figuring out what company they work with. Do the old LinkedIn stalk. Figure out what size the company is, see what position they have in the company. See, what’s really fascinating. And I’ll just tell it how it is here when we launch a good lead magnet, because we’re in the direct response advertising space and we’re a digital marketing agency that offers this.

We often will have two types of leads that come through or maybe three. Number one, the business owner that isn’t quite ready to engage us. We have number two. Other are getting agency owners or other marketing professionals who are attached to marketing agencies who want to upskill themselves for either promotion or they want to go about establishing their own business. And.

Taking the best insights of what we’ve got and funnel hacker. So that’s number two or number three, we’ve got the high quality prospect. Now you need to be able to triage these three in our business to determine what’s really working from your marketing qualified lead campaigns. Because if you don’t get that right.

The whole thing will fall over. So. It’s really interesting. That not only do you need to do the qualitative analysis on these marketing-qualified leads that you generate? You also need to then look back at okay. I’ve generated. All these marketing qualified leads. These campaigns provide me with the most qualified marketing qualified leads.

And why is that? And that’s what you need to get really curious about. What are you saying in your ads? What do you, what does your lead magnet, what does your gated. Off content offer, or what does your checklist, your free guide, your training, your calculator, or your spreadsheet? Like what does that tell the customer?

And what promise are they buying into? You know, in the digital marketing agency game, most people are just buying into gimme as many leads as possible. Help me reduce my cost per cost of acquire a customer. Um, help me increase my customer lifetime value. Right. That’s what most people are buying into.

And help me navigate this platform or how me get this particular type of customer, right? Like that’s what most people are buying into. But within that, there are pockets of good. Customers, and there are pockets of good prospects. So then once you get curious and once you start to recognize, oh, okay, cool.

If I start changing my messaging from say, generate more leads versus reduced your cost to acquire a customer. What does that do to the lead quality? Chances are, you’ll find someone. Who is more advanced with their. They’re direct response advertising journey, and they’re thinking, oh, okay. And this is quite good. I need to be able to reduce my CACs so I can get as many customers through the door as possible. But then if you compare that to someone who’s talking about how to triple your customer lifetime value versus reducing your cost to acquire a customer that may even provide you with a more sophisticated.

Direct response, advertising specialists, then again. So. What I’m getting to here is that it’s not cut and dry when you’re generating a whole volume of a large volume of marketing qualified leads where you’re getting real gains is. Looking at the marketing qualified leads you are generating from your MQL based campaigns.

And then looking at the lead quality that’s coming through, look at every single one of those people. See if you can match it to a LinkedIn profile, a company, a company size industry, vertical, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And what they’re actually doing. Are they running LinkedIn ads? Are they running Facebook ads?

Are they running Google ads? Do you know anything about the SEO? Um, backlink profile and then you get a real understanding of where that person is inside of there. Business journey. Because then you can use this. To reinforce. Your gated offer content creation process. To go about improving your lead quality once again. And that is what’s really powerful. See a lot of people build their.

Typical gated content to a strategy call or their gated content to free trial. Based quote-unquote offers, like I know that Ryan dice and Sabri Suby have made it very popular to, you know, develop like a lead magnet and then offer a strategy call. And that’s the whole nature of reducing their cost to acquire a customer.

Through that sort of. You know, two stage. Funnel, and I know Russell, Brunson’s a big proponent of this. However, if you do this wrong, And your. You’re literally setting up your gated content. Um, offer landing page, which is just based on volume. And then you send them into your upsell page for a free strategy call or a free trial, and the quality of your users that are signing up on the squeeze page for the gated content offer is terrible. No, one’s going to be signing up to the lead magnet.

No, no, no. One’s gonna be signing up to the strategy. Call my apologies. So like, we’ve got to get this right guys, like if you are a SaaS growth marketer or if you’re a digital marketer or an e-commerce cat, like whoever’s listening to this today, this is really, really important stuff. Because. If you don’t get this right, your whole funnel falls over.

So, this is why I’m a huge advocate and you’ve can probably hear on this podcast for higher quality leads, pay more for your leads. Pay as much as you possibly can for your marketing qualified leads. Providing the high quality, because you will outperform your competitors hand over fist every single time. Remember Dan Kennedy said he could spend the most to acquire a customer is the winner of this direct response, advertising growth marketing business. So.

This is why. And this is my call for you. If you are generating MQL. Please get into your CRM today, go through your leads, and see how good their quality is. Stack it against a LinkedIn profile, stank it against a LinkedIn company profile. Have a look at what they’re doing in the Facebook ads. Library have look at what they’re doing on their LinkedIn profile. See if you’ve got SEM rush so you can determine how much money they’re spending on Google ads and what their backlink profile is.

And then once you can start seeing which MQL campaigns are actually generating you, high quality leads. You then can take all that information and then reinforce your MQL content creation process. Once you’ve got that locked in and dialed that’s when it’s time to optimize your next step in your Ryan Deiss slash Russell Brunson’s slash Sabri Suby gated content plus strategy call plus demo offer funnel.

That is it everybody? I hope you got something out of this. This is. I think this is one of my best podcasts to date. And may I say. And if you’ve got some value out of this, please share this with your colleagues, friends, or a founder that needs this. We do this for free for SaaS founders, online business owners.

You know, course creators, agency owners, whoever who’s willing to open their mind to an empowered way of using direct response advertising to grow their business. This is what it’s all about here at Owendenny digital helping business owners, software founders, uh, online brand. Owners, whatever, grow their business through the latest and greatest in marketing strategy, direct response advertising and world-class media buying.

If you liked this podcast, please do subscribe. We do pump these out every single week for good people like you to grow their business. And if I don’t speak to you soon, I hope this has been valuable. I want you to go about implementing this and if you need any additional help, go check out the job notes below.

Not the job notes. The show notes below. So where you can go about booking a free strategy call with me. Or booking just a quick 10 minute chat to see whether or not Owendenny digital can help you and your software company grow. Through the latest and greatest in what we do. I’ll speak to you all soon. This has been valuable to talk to you we’ll talk again now.




Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠


2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠


We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

Want To Level Up Your Life? Find 3 Hobbies.

In this podcast, host and founder Dean Denny, discusses the importance of having three different hobbies to enhance your life and business. The first hobby should tap into your creativity, allowing you to explore new ideas and perspectives. The second hobby should focus on fitness, keeping you physically and mentally healthy to perform better in your business endeavors. The third hobby should be one that generates income, providing an additional source of financial stability while also offering a fresh perspective on your business.

Engaging in these hobbies not only adds color and balance to your life but also connects you with like-minded individuals who can support and inspire you.


Here’s what you will learn:

1) Balancing work and personal life: The podcast emphasizes the importance of having hobbies outside of work to prevent becoming too consumed by business. It suggests that focusing solely on work can lead to burnout and affect the quality of your work. It’s essential to find a balance and engage in activities that bring you joy and fulfillment outside of work.

2) Cultivating creativity: The podcast suggests that having a hobby that allows you to tap into your creativity can benefit both your personal life and your business. Engaging in creative activities helps you exercise your creative muscle and brings more vibrancy and inspiration to your everyday life. It can also lead to innovative ideas and approaches in your business.

3) Prioritizing physical and mental health: The podcast highlights the significance of staying fit and taking care of your physical and mental well-being. Engaging in a hobby that keeps you active and promotes a healthy lifestyle can have positive effects on your overall well-being. It can improve your focus, productivity, and cognitive abilities, ultimately benefiting your business performance.

4) Creating additional income streams: The podcast recommends having a hobby that can generate income. Having a secondary source of income through a hobby or side business allows you to explore new opportunities and perspectives. It can provide financial stability and a different lens through which you can view your primary business, potentially identifying new strategies or avenues for growth.

5) Building communities and connections: The podcast emphasizes the power of hobbies in connecting like-minded individuals. Engaging in hobbies can help you meet new people, form relationships, and join communities where you can share experiences and learn from others. These connections can provide support, networking opportunities, and even potential business collaborations.



[00:01:20] Winning is more fun than fun.

[00:02:08] Level up life with hobbies.

[00:06:18] Find creative hobby, get fit.

[00:08:20] Hobby for fitness, health, confidence.

[00:10:21] Find hobby, make money, feel better.


Hey, everyone. Welcome to open-source growth. I am your host Dean Denny, founder and director of Owendenny digital. And today guys, this is a unique podcast. This isn’t going to be one on software. This isn’t going to be one marketing. But it will influence your ability to launch incredible marketing campaign. So it will also enable you the opportunity to become a bigger and better version of yourself. Because one of the things that entrepreneurs and growth marketers and e-commerce business owners. Like we all just get totally obsessed with our businesses. Right. So it doesn’t matter. Whether you’re a freelancer, who’s aspiring to take their digital marketing agency from one person to five people. Or if you own a software company.

That’s you know, 20 people deep with you, but like 15 devs, a couple of marketing people, a couple of sales guys, whatever. Or your a accounting firm or even a fish and chips shop. It doesn’t really matter where you are. On your journey. You know, Running and growing a business can be addictive purely because of the fact that.

You know, winning is addictive and.

There was this really famous podcast by, um, Andy Frisella where they talk about. How winning is more fun than fun is. And. It got me thinking. The other day. Well,

If winning’s fun.

And winning is more fun than fun. I can spread a pretty dangerous message. Don’t you think? Because. What it can force us to do is just get totally. Completely and utterly obsessed with our businesses. But we can fail to focus on other things which are. Supplementary and. Other things, which I personally believe can make a bigger difference in your life.

See, I personally believe that. You need to have three. Different kinds of hobbies. To level up your life. And here’s why. See, if you’re just focusing on business. You can often just get so caught up in your own shit. And get caught up in the sales tent and get caught up in the marketing in, get caught up in the podcast.

Like the one I’m doing today. You can get caught up in your content creation or your products development or your. I don’t know your HR issues or whatever. And.

There’s this expression, which I’m a firm believer on that, you know, all work and no play makes Charlie adult boy. And it’s true, you know, if you watch. You know, The workaholic type business owners. And if they’re trying to run their marketing at the same time, More often than not the marketing style. It’s flat. It’s boring. And no one’s going to want to actually go back clicking on that content offer..

So far or that sales call or whatever. See, I personally believe you need three different types of hobbies because hobbies provide you with so much more energy, so much more life and so much more. You know, So many more colors to paint the palette. Of your life and paint the palette of your dreams. Now I’m not just using the word or the number three, just to be like, Hey, you need three hobbies. Go.

off and you know, Go create or go whatever, purely because of the fact that. Quite frankly. Um, it’s not like that. You need three different types of properties and each hobby needs to serve you. See, I personally have a few different hobbies and they also meet in unique ways and they’ve all together.

Enabled me to become a more complete person that enabled me to become. Uh, prouder person, someone who’s not just, you know, grinding it out, but also expressive and creative. And it’s enabled me to, you know, find real. You know, find that real like life force again. And I think if you’re feeling a bit flat, if you’re feeling a little bit out in that app, um, it down and out.

No, this could be the message you need here. In your life and I’m giving you permission. To follow your dreams and follow your heart. Yeah. So without further ado, what are these three hobbies? So. If you, I personally believe you need three different types of hobbies. You need a hobby that. Enables you to tap into your own creativity.

You need a hobby that makes you money. And you need a hobby that keeps you fit.

Now you could be thinking, oh, well, Sheesh. Why do I need these three things? You know, for instance, you might be an accountant. And you might be thinking, oh, well, I run an accounting company. Why do I need to be creative?? Well, quite frankly, you might need to be creative with tax laws. You may need to be creative with your marketing campaigns. You may be creative with your HR or your resourcing. You might need to be creative with.

Um, the way you coordinate meetings and. Figure out a way to wow. Your customers. So in hobby one, you need to find something which enables you to tap into your own creativity. For me. I love music. It’s no secret here. I love jazz and I love hip hop and R and B and soul music. And I love. Playing guitar. So, you know, if it was any given Sunday or any given weekend, you can find me composing and rehearsing and playing guitar and trying to learn new songs or figure out how to play something or whatever.

And with a hobby that enables you to be creative. Like there’s such beautiful tangential benefits. Not only are you able to exercise that creative muscle in your business, but it really does breathe life into your, into your everyday. Because if you think about it, you’re being creative. You’re actually.

Physically, like from the word you, by definition, you are. Taking things from concept and turning them into reality. So if you like, music’s my thing, but it doesn’t have to be yours. Perhaps you’d like to write stories, perhaps you’d like to, um, paint or you’d like to draw. Or you like to play with pottery?

Sculpt stuff like find a creative hobby and work at it every weekend. I’m not saying you’ve spent like all Saturday and Sunday constructing, you know, Furniture and tables out in the backyard or whatever. What I am saying though, is. Give yourself the permission to step away from the business and find a hobby that enables you to create, because you will see such incredible tangential benefits.

Inside of your business and it would just, it’ll just flow through and we’ll make you feel so much. More ease with everything. And we’ll give you confidence and self-esteem so. Get onto that guys. It’s a really incredible. Um, way to add the X factor to your business. The next one, which I’m sure that a lot of you already know is finding a hobby.

That makes you fit. Now, this is where. Yeah. Everyone knows that, you know, your health is your wealth, right? Like it can’t be said enough, especially when you are a high-performance founder. Business owner. Who’s trying to, you know, wake up early, stay up late work, long, hard, arduous hours. But the craziest part about this.

The longer you work, the fitter you need to be, not only do you need to be fit physically, but you need to be fit mentally as well. And, you know, When stress builds up, you know, you start seeing the mental cloud and the mental fog setting in. It’s not good. It’s not kosher. It’s not nice. And it’s really, really difficult because as your cognitive ability, declines,

Your tasks, the ones you. You know, 35, 40 minutes now take three fricking hours. That’s. It’s not efficient at all. So if you are thinking, well, man, I’ve got to get fit. Don’t just get fit for the sake of getting fit. Get fit for the sake of having a hobby. Now, for instance, my hobby is boxing. It used to be cycling, but I love boxing now. Like I’m obsessed with boxing. Um, you know, I would go box three to four times a week. I’d also go lift weights.

You know, three to four times a week in any given day, I’ve been a bit sick lately. So I’m eating to get back out there, but the reason why having a hobby, which that you get obsessed by and consumed by that heaps you healthy. Is that not only does it enable you to you. To get fit like with boxing, you ha you started developing nice shoulders and back muscles and chest muscles and arms, and you lose weight. You look good. You feel when you feel strong, you develop this reinforced level of confidence, but honoring yourself and making those personal commitments to yourself to get healthy, to get fit, to get wise.

It’s going to help. You and your business settings. For instance, with boxing, I now stand taller in marketing meetings. I’m I lead better. I’m. Better at dealing with conflict and, you know, there’s so much. I can’t really speak highly enough of boxing. It’s made a huge difference in my life. Um, but what I am asking you here is that if you don’t have a hobby, which gets you fit.

Look inwards and ask yourself if I’m going to play a sport, if I’m going to do something, which gets me fit. What would be good for me? Maybe it’s powerlifting, maybe it’s um, you know, doing like muscle comps or is it. Table tennis. Is it? Um, is it, is it, is it running? Is it cycling? Is it triathlon?

Um, look into something. That. You know, enables you to work on yourself, which forces you to get up early, to get to the gym. To clear your mind before the big day enables you to blow off steam, super crucial, like. If you think about ways in which humans can blow off steam. He can, he can take the health driven path, which is, you know, going out for a run, getting healthy journaling, all that stuff. Or you can take the not so enlightened path of, you know,

Doing drugs, it’s doing alcohol. Bitching with your friends, et cetera, et cetera. And that’s not going to help you out long term. So like find a hobby that keeps you healthy. That enables you to eliminate that brain fog. Enables you to develop some form of discipline and enables you to, uh, how do I say this enables you to get healthy, get fit.

And makes you look better. Uh, you’ll feel better and you’ll be able to step out into the world as a confident. Reinforced ironclad human being. And now this is the final one, and I think. That this is crucial because again, this makes you look at. The world in a slightly different way. See the last hobby that I recommend everyone have is a hobby that makes the money.

Now this hobby that can make the money. It doesn’t just have to be, you know, buying and selling real estate or buying shares or, you know, could be, um, you know, purchasing bonds or investing in other business. Stuff like that. Like, they’re all fine. They’re good ones, but it could be something as simple.

A simple though. Um, as unique as, oh, I have a hobby business. I have a little e-commerce store I do on the site, a little side hustle. You may teach guitar. You may teach clarinet. Um, you may, you know, you may, you may clean other people’s houses because you really enjoy being able to help out the elderly or whatever, but.

Have a secondary source of income through somebody that you really, really enjoy. You know, Like I’ve enjoyed. You know, trading on the stock market historically, and I really love that. I can’t wait to get back into that soon. AKI, you know, I’ve taught guitar on the side. I’ve sold dog biscuits to cafes on the side.

Um, you know, I’m just trying to think about all the other things I’ve helped out. I coach marketers on the side. You know, there’s a whole heap of. I would say, you know, heart led business that I do. Away from the marketing agency, because it enables me to see the world in a different way, but also.

Enables me to. How do I say this? You know, It recharges me because it provides me with something different from the business and trying to scale up. And, you know, if you have that additional hobby that makes you money, you start looking at things differently. For instance, just say you’re into buying and selling, um, company stocks. It enables you to look at your own business.

Through the eyes of a share trader or a fundamental investor or institution. Um, that does invest in companies. And you think, why would I invest in my company? Well, The balance sheet isn’t very good. Or I would invest in my company. I’d be throwing the house at it because my profit. Um, my profit to earnings ratio is so damn high, et cetera, et cetera. You know what I mean? So,

Finding that hobby that makes you money. Can also enable you to look at your own business with a new set of eyes. And enable you to find additional profits in your business, but you get to have a whole lot of fun along the way, too. Like it doesn’t really matter what it is, but just find something you enjoy. You might love restoring and selling furniture. You may love restoring and selling cars. You may love flipping and selling bottles of wine.

The find that hobby commit to it and have a good fun there because what’s interesting in all of these three unique hobbies, not only will you be able to tap into your creativity. You’re not only will you be able to reinforce a level of confidence and bring a whole new level of discipline to your life, or even put a few extra hundred, if not thousands of dollars into your pocket every single month.

It will also enable you to tap into new communities. See. Hobbies are incredible because they aggregate like-minded people. All together. That can share in what you love. That can. You know how stories they’ll people who are looking to bond and you’ll feel like you’re connected and you’re part of something. And as a founder, you know how lonely it can be.

And with hobbies, it enables to bring all these people who are just like you together, you get to bond and you get to. Um, enjoy and share. In this. And what’s often really interesting is that not only will you meet people from different walks of life, but you probably will also meet people just like you, who are using this hobby as not so much an escape from their business, but also something which may supplement their business as well.

And, you know, what, if you’re a B2B business, you may even be able to make some money from these communities in these networks. And you’re able to form through your hobbies. So guys. That’s my thoughts. I have three hobbies. I’d love to know what your three hobbies, heart. If you do have three hobbies and how they go about influencing you in your life and in your business. Shoot me an email. My email is You can check that out in the show notes below.

And I’d love to know about the hobbies that you, um, take part in every single day, because they do make a massive difference in your life. It can make such a magnificent. Difference in your business and all enable you to really think and push the envelope in the pursuit of your dreams. So guys, thank you so much for tuning in today. If you want to know how we can help you grow your business through the latest and greatest in direct response, advertising, social media marketing.



Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital


Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency



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