27X ROI From Digital Ads: How We’re Scaling Our SaaS Marketing Agency With Facebook Ads

On this episode of the podcast, Dean Denny shares valuable insights on maximizing ROI from Facebook ad campaigns. They discuss the importance of understanding the customer journey, creating compelling messaging, and utilizing the right assets for successful digital advertising. The episode also explores the significance of lead magnets, personalized calls, and presentations in attracting and nurturing potential clients. Additionally, they touch on the use of AI tools like ChatGPT for content creation and optimizing messaging in advertising campaigns. Overall, this episode provides strategies for lead generation, nurturing leads, and enhancing sales processes through strategic marketing efforts.


[00:02:54] Generate $27 for every $1 invested.

[00:15:54] Effective marketing podcast with growth strategies.

[00:19:56] Use Facebook lead forms for better data.

[00:22:50] Use lead forms, Calendly, thank you page.

[00:26:50] Increase show up rate on calls. Use Facebook cards, email marketing, automations. Build trust with audience.

Lessons Learned from the Podcast

    1. Understand and Segment Your Target Market:
      • One of the most crucial steps in achieving high ROI in Facebook ads is to thoroughly understand and segment your target market. By profiling customers into sub-markets or sub-avatars, such as startups, scale-ups, and enterprises, you can tailor your messaging, voice, and communication style to resonate with specific customer needs and pain points.
    1. Develop Effective Marketing and Sales Qualified Lead Offers:

      • Create compelling Marketing Qualified Lead (MQL) offers like guides, checklists, or reports to capture contact information. Follow this with Sales Qualified Lead (SQL) offers that provide immediate value and a positive transformation, encouraging potential clients to book a call. Avoid negative messaging and ensure the offer is uplifting and motivational
    2. Optimize Ad Copy and Creatives:

      • Use direct, succinct, and conversion-focused ad copy. High-quality video and static creatives should clearly communicate your message and attract your target audience. You can review successful examples in the Facebook ads library to understand what works well.
    3. Use Facebook Lead Forms and Automations:

      • Instead of relying solely on landing pages, leverage Facebook lead forms to capture leads efficiently. Ensure that your thank-you pages and follow-up emails drive leads to book calls. Automate your email sequences to nurture leads over time, helping build familiarity and trust with your brand.
    4. Patience and Understanding Sales Cycles:

      • Recognize that achieving significant ROI takes time. Understand your sales cycle and don’t expect immediate results.

This is Open Source Growth, Australia’s number one SaaS marketing podcast hosted by me, Dean Denny, founder and director of Owendenny Digital. Get ready to deep dive into a world of direct response advertising. Unlock the mysteries of digital marketing, master the art of copywriting and drive massive revenue growth with cutting edge customer acquisition strategies, from product led growth to sales led growth. We’ve got it all covered, and that’s not all.

Join us as we sit down with some of the brightest minds in our industries, founders, CMOs who’ve been where you are and have made it to the other side with stories to tell and wisdom to share.

We’re not just about the strategies in the how to’s, we’re here to fuel your drive with a heavy dose of motivation because in the world of SaaS, it’s not about knowing the path. It’s about charging down with all you’ve got. Whether you’re looking to double, triple, or even 10X your SaaS company this year, Open Source Growth is your ticket to the big leagues.

So plug in, turn up the volume, and let’s get your SaaS rocketing to new heights. Because here it’s not just growth. It’s exponential growth served with a side of fun and a sprinkle of the extraordinary.

Welcome to Open Source Growth. Let the adventure begin.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Open Source Growth. You’re here with Dean, Founder and Director of Owendenny Digital. And in today’s episode, I want to go about how we are getting an insane return on investment from our Facebook ads campaigns. Now, at the time of this recording, for every dollar we have invested this year in Facebook ads, we have generated an overwhelming 15 dollars back.


But this could improve.  And based on our current projections, looking at our HubSpot, CRM, and seeing where things are going, it’s more than likely that for every single dollar we invest in Facebook ads in 2024, we are likely to generate over 27 dollars. So, imagine if you built out a system in your business where you could spend 1 dollar and you would receive 27 dollars of revenue back, what would you do? How would you feel? And how would that change the way you do business? How would you show up every single day? What would you be believing about you and yourself?  And your naysayers in your life that say you’re not great at business or you’re not great at marketing or whatever. How would that make you feel? If you’re like any of us it would make you feel incredible. Having a machine which generates 27 dollars for every dollar you invest in your Facebook ads right here and right now that would be life altering for most of you who listen to this podcast.


Now, in today’s episode, I’m going to reveal to you everything that we are doing inside of our agency, which is a B2B sales led growth company that sells digital advertising services, direct response copywriting, go to market strategy, and digital advertising for the B2B SaaS space, the info product space and also the direct to consumer SaaS space as well. And I’m going to show you how you can do exactly the same thing inside of your marketing agency, inside of your Accounting practice, inside of your product, inside of your sales led SaaS company. Because at the end of the day these processes do work. They’re proven to work and I’m going to give you absolutely everything away for free that you can go about implementing into you and your own business so you can go about spitting out dollar bills for every dollar you faithfully invest into digital ads. So, let’s get into it.


Now before we get in there, I just want to reveal a few of the main mistakes that people make when they go about building out a Facebook ads machine. The first mistake that people make is everyone’s just going to buy my product for what it is and that’s the wrong way to look at it. You need to go about selling the transformation of your services and you need to be a little creative with how you package your services.  In fact, you need to go about reverse engineering your services into three key steps.


Number one, how you present your core offer and your services. Then take a step back. How do you get a person onto a sales call through the form of a sales qualified lead offer or an SQL? Then how do you get someone to sign up for your email list or your database, which we call a marketing qualified lead or a marketing qualified offer? And these are the three steps you need to consider when it comes to building out your Facebook ads machine. Now, in our ads machine, and you can check this out on Facebook ads library, like this is all very easy for you to see with what we’re doing inside of our agency. This is what we’ve done because we understand our target market. If you have a really strong target market and you understand their pain points, their desires, the language they speak, you can essentially blow your own equivalent of a marketing dog result to get them to stand up, look around. And then reach for the nearest possible means of getting them to do business with you. And it’s really, really powerful.


So, number one, understand your customer journey and assume that you cannot just simply sell your core offer as your core offer, as your first touch point to work with you and your business. So that’s, that’s really, really important.


The second thing you need to consider when you build these things out is that if you’re not writing correctly to your target market and your customer avatar and understanding those desires, pain points, challenges, fears, what they’ve tried before, what keeps them up at night, you know that whole rigmarole. If you don’t understand that, your messaging is going to be wildly off throughout the entire customer journey, so you need to ensure that is well hard baked into every single campaign that you do deploy.  Then the third thing, and this is truly vital, is that you need to have the right assets in play to make this system work. This system literally works with every single sales led growth business. So that could be anything from like bookkeeping, to accounting, to a law firm, to a, um, you know, a marketing agency, or a graphic design agency, or a video agency. Like this could work for any services business. In fact, you could probably do this for tradies as well and it would work fine in a painting or an electrical or whatever business. This all just works, right guys? And it’s really, really, simple if you do this correctly, but you need to have the right assets in place. You need to have an ability to create value for your customer that is free and it’s digestible, which enables them to exchange with some part of them, whether it be their time, their energy, their contact details, and eventually their money to go about working with you and turning into long term clients. So, this is really, really important. Let me just quickly sip my tea. Give me a second.  Mmm. It’s different.


Now guys, if I’m sounding a little different today, it’s purely because of the fact that I’m sitting on my beautiful couch here in my living room and I’m using a Rode Wireless Me microphone. Let me know what you think of the audio quality at the end of the call today. I think that would be really, really insane. I mean podcast, what am I even speaking about?


But anyway, you need to ensure that you can create websites or landing pages. You need to be able to create reports or free trainings or free guides. You need to go about having a consistent means of booking calls and having people show up to your calls as well. So, there’s a lot of moving parts here. But again, I’m giving it all away for free. So again, stop this podcast, listen, take notes. It’s all going to be revealed today.  So, they’re the three key things you need to know before you go into getting this out and knocking it out and making it right for you and your business.


See, let’s start from the very start. How we did it in our agency was very simple. We have a very narrow focus of working with B2B software founders, direct to consumer software founders who essentially have very, very similar pain points  and also info product marketers. So essentially platform owners on membership site owners, et cetera, et cetera.


But in this case, we purely targeted software company founders.  Now, what’s interesting about what we have done is that we’ve actually effectively segmented out our customers, the startups, the scale ups and the enterprises. And by segmenting out the sub -markets or the sub- avatars within our target market, we’re able to get really, really clear in regards to the messaging and the voice and the communication style that these types of customers really, really resonate within order to get them onto a call to communicate with us and essentially get into the fold of becoming an Owendenny agency client, right?


So, the first things first is you really need to profile out those target customers.  And once you have that, that can then form the backbones of your messaging and the products and the offers you need to develop. The second thing you must do is then create what we call a marketing qualified lead offer an MQL or a lead magnet.


Like it’s very, very simple.  Now, when it comes to the lead magnets, we’ve tested and tried so many of these over the years. We’ve tried checklists, we’ve tried guides, we’ve tried, um, different names and titles and things like that. And what we found to work inside of our agency was amazing. A title for a lead magnet, which I developed, which reveals literally everything you need to do to grow your SaaS company, whether it be product led or sales led growth called SaaS scaling secrets.


And it was a document that I created on Google docs, which the company, which the target market can consume instantly and they can go about making their own copy and reviewing it and et cetera, et cetera. It’s a really amazing guide. Again, go to our website and you can go about downloading that. But basically, that has been a workhorse and driven marketing qualified leads into our funnel for ages and ages and ages.


Now, what’s really interesting here is that you’re probably wondering why we’re generating marketing qualified leads when the end result is “Hey, I just want to get clients quickly”. Well, I’ll tell you why. Only 3 percent of your total addressable market or your TAM at any given time is ready to do business with you.


And if they’re not particularly ready to do your business, do business with you, you still have an opportunity to build out a relationship with these people over email, through remarketing ads, through Facebook ads, etc, etc. So it’s really, really crucial here that you factor in the 97 percent of people who aren’t going to be quite ready today.


Because with a little bit of love and a little bit of nurturing, you can go about turning these people into some really exquisite clients in the long term. And we’re in the process of doing that. So, I can’t really say that it’s just a 15X return on investment. We’re talking close to the 27X return on investment like previously.


So anyway, let’s get back to that.  So, once you’ve determined your marketing qualified lead offer, whether it be a checklist or a guide or a free training or a webinar or a report, you need to look at the different types of content that you can offer your customer and think about what can give me the fastest transformation for a customer through no involvement with me.


And that’s the information product you need to go about building for your customers. It can take very little time with the power of AI. So, I do want to remind you that. If you need to use AI to build these things out, you’ve got things like chat GPT, you can build out checklists or you can give away some of your IP, which is low risk to you and your business.


That’s a really amazing way to get things started here. Once you build out your marketing qualified lead offer, you then need to consider your sales qualified lead offer. Now, the marketing qualified lead offer was designed to capture people’s email addresses or capture their contact number or capture their first name and a little bit about their business.


Whereas a sales qualified lead offer is to capture them inside of your sales ecosystem or your sales process.  Now, in our case, we jazzed up our sales call. We don’t call them book a sales call with us because that’s not going to get people over the line, nor do we call it a strategy call because the educated B2B customer simply will not book this call.


Who will though? Well, that’s a different story for another day. But what I would really want to emphasize here is if you’re going to go about booking sales calls, you need to offer a transformation. Now, if you’ve profiled your customers effectively, all you need to do is determine what the most important transformation your customers want that you can offer, and then turn it into some form of growth mapping call or some form of diagnostic call, but don’t keep it all negative.


When you offer these calls, you want to give people a positive transformation, like my experience with this situation and offering these sales qualified lead offers and creating them is that whenever we’ve tested, say, a LinkedIn ads audit or a Facebook ads audit or Google ads audit. These have rarely worked when we’ve done some form of social advertising to get it to scale.


When it’s inbound SEO, it’s a different story. But what we’ve found with our Facebook ads campaigns for our B2B agency is that the best thing that you can do is to ensure that your sales qualified lead is uplifting, it’s motivational, and it transforms their business from where they are to where they truly aspire to be.


Now one of the major mistakes we’ve made recently in our ad campaigns, which you may see or you may not see, is in fact the fact that we’ve gone down a messaging, a negative messaging rabbit hole. In fact, I believe our ROI would have been far, far, far greater than what it is today. We didn’t go down a negative messaging rabbit hole.


We’ve made a fundamental mistake and that’s probably costed us in terms of the ROI from our campaign. Instead of being 1 dollar in, 27 dollars out, this could have been a campaign of 1 dollar in and say 37 or even 47 dollars out if we just kept our messaging positive. So again, we’re going to be changing that in our future campaigns.


Hey, it’s Dean here. If you’re enjoying the podcast so far, hit subscribe on your favorite platform as this is the best way to keep yourself informed with the latest, most effective marketing sales and life tactics published here weekly on Open Source Growth. This podcast is entirely self-funded. We run no ads and every podcast is designed to give you everything. You need to create a business and a life that you simply love. Show yourself some love, hit subscribe and let’s make this year your biggest year of growth together. Alright let’s get back to the podcast.


But and what’s really, really key here is that when you’re offering this sales qualified lead offer and developing this sales qualified lead offer, you need to be able to give your customer a transformation in person on a booked call where you can take them from where they are to where they want to be and develop a growth roadmap.


And potential next steps to go about pitching your product and service. And that’s what comes down to the final part of this puzzle here is that you need to develop a means of presenting your services in the form of a transformation, whether it be through a pitch deck or whether it be through a report or a proposal, which you go through with them on a call, and that enables you to be successful here.


Now, that’s basically an overview of the process. Have a lead magnet style, marketing qualified lead offer, which enables you to capture their emails. You need a sales qualified lead offer, which enables you to capture their phone numbers and books them into a call. And then finally, you need to have a means of presenting your services, your products and services, whether it be through visual aids pitch decks, a written proposal, which you then walk through with your customers. That’s essentially how you would go about making this work and be truly, truly successful. Now, what about the mechanics here of the Facebook media buying? Because I know you’re probably all thinking, Oh, well, that’s great in theory, but how difficult is this really to set up?


Well, it’s pretty simple. First things first, you need ad copy and you need ad creatives to make these campaigns work. Now, I can’t give you all of the creatives that we’re running right here right now, but you can simply just go to the Facebook ads library, look up our business, and then you can review each of the ad copies that we’re using for our target market.


In fact, you could even look at the videos that we’re using for our target market. You’ll notice that our product, our production quality on our videos isn’t even that great. But the key thing here is, is the message that we’re communicating through the video creatives and the static creatives, which immediately Signal to the target market what we are and who we are and what we do and that’s really, really, really crucial here guys. So, the first things first is you need great ad copy, you need a great video creatives, and you need an incredible headline and with those ad copy creatives.


Remember it needs to be direct. It needs to be direct succinct. It can be long, but as long as there’s an extreme word economy and they’ve got a really strong direct response copywriting style, which is built for conversions. That’s what’s key here. Now that’s essentially part one, part two, your landing pages.


Now here’s a little bit of a sneaky tip. You don’t really need to use landing pages to be successful here. You can use Facebook lead forms as long as you’ve got your auto responders properly hooked up. Now, in our case, we’ve often had better success using Facebook lead forms than we have from using our landing pages, and we personally believe there’s a reason behind this, and the reason behind this is that Facebook’s able to deliver you better data when they’re getting fed this type of customers that you’re acquiring through the Facebook lead forms.


So that’s what we believe is working right here, right now. Due to the fact that there’s many different issues happening with Facebook’s conversion, API, et cetera, et cetera. So when it comes to your, whether it be your top of funnel campaign or your middle funnel campaign, or what we would consider your MQL campaign or your sales qualified lead campaign, our belief here guys, is that you don’t really need to be doing anything crazy. You just need to use Facebook lead forms. Ensure that the content can be consumed through the Facebook lead forms or after the submission of the Facebook lead form ad campaign. And then, voila, you should be pretty okay. So, that’s the first thing that you need to hook up. You need your great ad copy, which directly calls out the audience, hits on the pain points, and then heroes your marketing qualified lead offer or your sales qualified lead offer as the transformation agent.


For them to achieve their dreams. So that’s pretty simple. That’s direct response copywriting in a nutshell. And then again, you’ve got to create the creatives that support that. The next thing you need to ensure that you’ve got is the landing pages. Get the lead forms going for both your marketing qualified lead and also your sales qualified lead.


Now, with the lead form on your Marketing Qualified Lead campaign here guys, what’s really really crucial here is that when you’ve got the thank you opportunity on your Marketing Qualified Lead campaign always send this through to the booking link for your sales qualified lead opportunity or your sales qualified lead booking calendar page.


Now we use Calendly in our agency. A lot of other agencies use HubSpot, um, calendar links, but either way, it’s perfectly fine. If you do that and you drive that content through to your calendar link, more often than not, a lot of your target customers will claim the marketing qualified lead offer, which is, you know, the free guide or whatever it is.


And then they’ll book the growth call with you or the sales call, which we call in our case, the T2 D3 strategy session. And then basically at that point you would have gotten two for the price of one. You would have had someone sign up for a lead magnet and then go into a strategy session all in the same session.


How great’s that?  Now that’s everything you must do. Now when it comes to the sales qualified lead, lead form, basically use the first step to capture the contact information, the name, the email address, and the phone number, and then drive them immediately to your Calendly link. Believe it or not, this has been the lowest friction way for us to book, using our systems.


And it has outperformed our landing pages for our T2D3 growth landing pages. So, we do test both of them. And sometimes we do get better results with our landing page versus our lead form. But again, if you want to keep things simple and not have to spend and outlay huge, huge, huge expenses on your Facebook ad campaign or setting up this funnel, just use Facebook lead forms and you’re going to be okay.


As long as you can drive people on the thank you page of your lead forms to a Calendly or a HubSpot calendar link. You should be cool if you do this. The next thing I want to talk to you about guys, is now that you’ve got this set up, now you’ve got your Calendly link set up. Um, actually no, I probably should talk a little bit about that.


The next thing you need to do is set up a Calendly account or a calendar booking account. And the reason why I want you to do this over just sending to a typical contact form is that you want to see a micro commitment from your customer  to then go into the next step of their customer journey with you.


And that’s by booking a call and showing a commitment to you that they really want to go about changing and transforming the way they do business. So again, set up a Calendly account. Create an event which is based on your sales qualified lead offer, which, whether it be like a T2D3 growth call, like we do for our agency, because again, our market is the SaaS  vertical or whatever you choose to do. That’s basically what you need to go about doing and setting up for you and your business.


Now, the next piece of infrastructure you need to set up once people submit that form is driving your customers to a thank you page. Now, a thank you page is the ultimate opportunity to nurture your customers, to tell them what you do, what you can offer them and how you can help them grow their business. And you can go about showing more about you and all the things that are happening inside of your business and make them feel better about themselves as well. So again, establish a really solid thank you page in your business. And this is something you will need to spend some time and energy into doing.


So on our thank you page at Owendenny Digital, we give people additional resources, additional training, case studies, testimonials. We smash them with as much proof as possible about what we are, who we are, and what we do, so people feel immediately safe after scheduling that call that they’re in the hands of a true professional.


And by having a really solid landing page, it’s really increased our ability to improve our show up rate for those booked sales calls. So this is an absolute game changer. Go to town and creating an incredible thank you page it will immediately reduce your no show rate. And you know, it’ll improve your sales process because at the end of the day, the more people you get into your funnel, the more sales you’re more likely to make happen.


Therefore, you get a better ROI on your entire campaign experience.  So they’re the types of the  assets that you need from an advertising perspective.  Now, when you’re delivering  your Facebook ads campaign,  not only will you need to be communicating with your customers on Facebook ads. You’ll need to be also nurturing these people via SMS and also via email throughout this period.


Now, when it comes to nurturing customers via SMS we use Calendly’s features and that enables us to increase the show up rate on our calls when it comes to getting the sales qualified lead into the funnel and you know, we nurture them, et cetera, et cetera, and they do show up for the call and it works really, really well.


But when it comes to delivering the rest of the content and telling more of a compelling narrative about you and your brand, not only do you need to use the Facebook ads to nurture them, et cetera, but you also need to use email marketing. So when they signed up for that marketing qualified lead, you need to go about delivering that lead magnets to them.


Now set up automations here because it’s going to be your best friend. And with that marketing qualified lead, you need to set up a first an email to deliver the lead to them. And then you need to set up a consequential four emails after that in a string of automations spaced at roughly, you know, anywhere between two, every anywhere between one per day for the next five days or if you really want to stretch it out and you don’t feel so comfortable smashing your prospects with that. My belief would be at the very least one every three days so you can then really nurture that customer over a longer period of time and  the reason why you want to go about doing this is that, again, people build familiarity when they get in contact with you, and they touch you, and they, they see your ads, and they see you in different places.


In fact, it’s actually a technique called tapping, which was a, this is a fun fact for you guys, in case you’re wondering. This strategy about being seen in many different places, was used by the pickup artistry community, which are a bunch of dudes who literally crack on to girls and try to get dates quickly and try to seduce them.


Like, it’s a real sleazy community, but one thing that they did find out was that if you take a girl  to many different locations on a singular date, they’re more likely to trust you because they’ve seen you in many settings. And you need to go about applying that in your own marketing by ensuring that they see you on Facebook ads, they get tapped by an SMS, they see you in your email inbox, you remarket to them on say Instagram, you’re on LinkedIn, you can cookie them and remarket to them on LinkedIn, et cetera, et cetera.


That’s a really compelling way of building massive trust with you and your audience and getting them to opt in for your products when they are ready. So that’s legitimately everything that we’re doing. And as I said here, at this point of recording this video, we have generated at least, bare minimum, a 15X return on our money at this point. What’s really interesting here, and these are my final remarks in today’s podcast guys, is that


I want to let you know that when you’re building out these funnels and things don’t work in the first week, it’s probably because of the fact that you’re not really factoring in your sales cycle. See, most people get this so unexpectedly believably wrong when it comes to building out funnels is that they often want to be running a campaign for like a week and they expect literally to be a Dotcom millionaire the next week.


This has taken us some time to refine in our business but what’s also taken us some a massive amount of time and energy here is understanding that if your sales cycle is say four weeks. And you’re not seeing results in week one, you’ll never see results in week one of advertising. So if you really want to go about, really crushing it with your Facebook ads in your business, in your B2B business, or your high ticket consumer, business or your software company or whatever it is, you just need to be in the game for long enough. You simply cannot run a campaign for two weeks and believe that Facebook ads would never work for your business. It’s really shooting yourself in the foot. If you understand the length of your sales process, if you understand how long it takes to prospectively nurture someone from a marketing qualified lead to jumping on a sales call,  if you understand these time steps, you really need to add a lot of these numbers together to figure out, Oh, okay, cool.


Well, we need to be running ads for probably the best part of six weeks before we start to see things really working for us and our business. Otherwise,  if you don’t, you’re going to be left,  um, stranded with no means and no belief in your ability to grow.  But more importantly, you just need to back yourself.


If you don’t back yourself here, and if you don’t have faith, and if you’re not willing to test, and try, and, you know, experience the hits, and experience the wins. This podcast simply is not for you. Now guys, thank you so much for tuning in today. Um, I hope this has been a hoot. If you need some assistance with your digital advertising, and if you’re wanting to get, you know, one for every dollar you put in, at least 15 dollars, or in our case, probably closer to 27 back. And if you want to have that belief and that faith that for every dollar you invest in advertising, you’re going to be getting massive, massive long term returns in terms of customer lifetime value, but you don’t have the confidence to do it yourself, all you need to do is jump into the show notes on this podcast and click on the link to book a 10 minute discovery call with me if you think we can help you grow your business and take it from six figures to seven figures and from seven figures to eight and so on, and so on, and so on with the people for you. So again, if you want some assistance with your digital advertising and your customer acquisition strategies . Hit that link.


Let’s see how we can go from there. But I just want to say once more. Thank you for tuning in today I’m your host, Dean, Founder and Director of Owendenny Digital and I’ll see you when I see you .


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


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Unleashing the Power of Storytelling with Naomi Soman of Storylogick

On this episode of Open Source Growth, join hosts Dean Denny and Naomi Soman as they dive into the world of marketing, copywriting, and storytelling. Special guest Naomi Soman shares her expertise on user research, customer personas, and the psychology behind effective marketing strategies. Discover the secrets to engaging audiences through storytelling, conducting authentic user interviews, and optimizing headlines and CTAs. Learn how to adapt your copywriting strategies for social media, with a focus on authenticity, creativity, and experimentation. Don’t miss out on this exciting episode filled with valuable insights on crafting compelling narratives and driving successful marketing campaigns.


[00:00:16] Copywriter at Monday,com, developed system for copywriting, focused on voice of customer data for acquisition team.

[00:19:04] Voice of customer data used to create targeted copy for B2B FinTech startup.

[00:37:29] Copywriting for social selling success. Authenticity, humor, and employee spotlights key.

[00:54:27] Copywriter specializing in PPC, website copy, social selling.

[01:10:41] Farmers and beekeepers love technology and storytelling.

Lessons Learned from the Podcast

  1. The Power of Reading and Learning:

    • Continuously seek out new books and resources to expand your knowledge. The mention of various books like Think and Grow Rich, Buy Back Your Time, Automatic Clients, Trading Up, and Magic Words highlights the importance of reading and learning from different sources to improve personal and professional skills.
  2. Value of Frameworks in Marketing:

    • Understanding and utilizing frameworks can significantly enhance your marketing strategies. The discussion about Automatic Clients emphasizes the importance of having a well-structured approach to product fit marketing and delivering value, which can lead to better execution and client satisfaction.
  3. Importance of Storytelling:

    • Stories play a crucial role in how we perceive and interact with the world. They are deeply ingrained in our psyche and offer insights into different cultures and perspectives.
  4. Cultural Diversity in Stories:

    • Recognize that storytelling varies across cultures, and each culture has its unique narratives. This diversity can broaden our worldview and enrich our understanding of different societies. The stories from China, Israel, the US, Australia, and the UK, for example, each offer distinct lessons and values.
  5. Analyzing and Understanding Stories:

    • Delving into the structure and purpose of stories can open up new ways of thinking and living. By analyzing the stories we encounter, we can uncover the underlying messages and values they convey, leading to a more fulfilling and enlightened life.

This is Open Source Growth, Australia’s number one SaaS marketing podcast hosted by me, Dean Denny, founder and director of Owendenny Digital. Get ready to deep dive into a world of direct response advertising. Unlock the mysteries of digital marketing, master the art of copywriting and drive massive revenue growth with cutting edge customer acquisition strategies, from product led growth to sales led growth. We’ve got it all covered, and that’s not all.

Join us as we sit down with some of the brightest minds in our industries, founders, CMOs who’ve been where you are and have made it to the other side with stories to tell and wisdom to share.

We’re not just about the strategies in the how to’s, we’re here to fuel your drive with a heavy dose of motivation because in the world of SaaS, it’s not about knowing the path. It’s about charging down with all you’ve got. Whether you’re looking to double, triple, or even 10X your SaaS company this year, Open Source Growth is your ticket to the big leagues.

So plug in, turn up the volume, and let’s get your SaaS rocketing to new heights. Because here it’s not just growth. It’s exponential growth served with a side of fun and a sprinkle of the extraordinary.

Welcome to Open Source Growth. Let the adventure begin.

You are here with me, Dean Denny, the Founder and Director of Owendenny Digital. And we have a special guest today, guys, the Founder of Storylogick, the queen of conversion copy,  Naomi Soman.

Naomi: Hi, hi thank you so much for having me here.

Dean: Naomi, it is a pleasure. What have you working up to this morning? Because I think we’re going to have a really good conversation today.

Naomi: Yeah, yeah. Excited to be here.

Dean: Yeah, I’m thrilled to have you here too. So, Naomi, for all the listeners today, give me three facts that people should know about you. This can be professional, personal, spiritual, whatever you want. Just, let’s go with the top three.

Naomi: Three things. I live in Tel Aviv, um, beautiful Mediterranean City.  Um,  I work in B2B SAAS, uh, in the tech ecosystem here in Israel,  and,  um,  I play the cello in a local orchestra.

Dean: Do you really?

Naomi: Yeah.  It’s mostly retirees in the orchestra, but it’s, uh, it’s a fun pastime of mine.

Dean: That’s amazing. So, so let’s get, let’s get straight into it. We can talk about the cello later. I will unpack that by the way.

Dean:  You’re young. You’re inspiring, and you’re doing such an amazing work at StoryLogick in the Israel startup community. But, I’m 100 percent certain that you didn’t arrive at working with B2B  SaaS.  Tell me about your journey that got you into marketing and copywriting and advertising. Let’s go from the very beginning.

Naomi: Yeah, yeah, that’s, um, very true. I did not start out this way, not even close. I think that a lot of people who end up as copywriters, um, end up there by accident through a strange series of events. Um, I originally wanted to go into academia. I wanted to be an English professor. And I, decided to take a six month, uh, trip to France to learn French before starting a PhD because anyone who’s in the humanities should probably know French. Um, had sort of a change of heart there. Um, decided that the academic life might not be for me. And was looking for a place to sort of put down roots. And, I was never so into New York. I’d been in Boston for a few years for university. And, I didn’t really know anyone in a lot of the other large cities in the US and a lot of my friends had started moving to Israel. We started to become like the new hip thing to do. And so, I thought I’d give it a try. Moved here, uh, learned how to speak Hebrew and Israel has a really thriving tech scene. It’s actually one of the largest in the world. A lot of people don’t know this, but there’s a huge, huge startup ecosystem here. And I got a job as a content manager and I sort of realized along the way that, whether you’re telling the story of a character or you’re telling the story of a customer, you’re still telling a story. And a lot of those same principles are still at play. You can pull a lot from one into the other. And I think that marketing is a fascinating, fascinating field. I, I think that it is people don’t give it enough credit, because marketing has a lot of data, and so unlike a world like, like literature, or maybe, Or, even psychology, you, you get immediate feedback from people, either they click or they don’t click. And so, you can learn so much about human psychology. And I think that the difference between, or one of the unique things about marketing is. Marketers almost assume that people are irrational and try to figure out how. Where I think that in a lot of other fields, like economics for example, we think of this like rational man. Like this is the way that a man behaves in the world. And marketing is almost the opposite. We like assume people are totally irrational and then try to explain what that means. Um, and, I think that that’s amazing because the human mind is so fascinating and marketing really gives you an inside look into how it works.

Dean: Yeah. It’s really fascinating when you think about that. Like, marketing is the greatest psychology experiment on the planet. There’s no experiment that gathers so much data over such like concentrated time step with enough you know, team members analyzing that data than anything in the world. Like, and it’s almost like, you know, people plus stimuli equals response. That’s like the, that that is what keeps us alive as marketers and direct response copywriters and, um, and all that jazz. And it’s just really interesting to see how you saw, like, the same storytelling principles from your, like, from your background and your Aspirations Academia, and how did that translate across to the copywriting world from your perspective?

Naomi: Yeah, for sure. So, I think that one of the big thing I noticed, one of the big things that I noticed, is figuring out how to tell a story. Um, so when you think about creating a character, you, you don’t necessarily get, like, a bio or a resume. You get, like, little details, like, the way that her wrist moves, or, um, what somebody thinks about her while she’s walking, walking past them. And I think that when you can take that kind of perspective, and that perspective being, you’re thinking in terms of moments, you’re thinking in terms of Snapshots, in terms of impressions.  Um, you can really create a very vibrant persona. Like very early on in my career, I was working with an affiliate marketing site that was involved in online therapy. And this was sort of before online therapy had blown up. And there, at the, the top of the page, there was a picture of a woman on a laptop. I was like, well, this is boring. And a lot of the team members were like, you know, we should show a picture of somebody sad, so we can resonate with the audience. And I said, you know, no, no. This is, this is not what we need. We need to show something inspirational. And, so I, I, I found a picture of a woman. And instead of saying, oh, I think this. This image will help improve the page because of reasons X, Y, and Z. I was able to tell a story about her. I was able to say, look, this is Susan, and Susan has done X in her life, and Susan went through online therapy, and now she has her life together, and she’s out wearing stylish clothing, and she’s out to go see, to go get brunch with her friends, and she has a positive outlook on life, and I think, and the new picture did much, much better, dramatically outperformed the original. And I think that, you know, when you come with more of a storytelling mindset, you shift from these are the pain points, these are the doubts and questions they have, this, these are the features that they use into more of a holistic understanding of the persona. It’s not just a list of demographics. It’s, this is a person, and they’re concerned about office politics, and they’re concerned about, you know, life at home and they’re concerned about all of these things that make them a real person, not just a persona on a newspaper.

Dean:  Yeah. I’m so glad that you’ve tapped into that because, you know, with any great customer avatar, need to get the demographics locked in, the psychographics 9 times out of 10 aren’t done to the right amount of detail.  And because you’re able to overlay those persona stories, and, you know, really bring them to life. You’re able to not only, you know, come up with a story which people can read and they’re like, oh wow, that’s who we’re targeting. But it’s also enabling the product, the marketing, the salespeople to be able to step into their shoes, really see not only the benefits of the product, but the benefits of the benefits, the functional, emotional and, um, you know, functional, emotional and financial benefits of the product that they have and how that impacts the person’s lives. And um, you can’t be, you just can’t be diligent enough about this. And I think that your storytelling approach really comes like really, really deep into that. So now I’m just now just wanting to talk to you about you were a content manager. At this startup in the thriving, bustling world   of Israel.  What happened next to get you from where you are now to StoryLogick?

Naomi: Yeah, for sure. Um, so I worked in three different companies in Tel Aviv. One was sort of a mid-sized, then I went to this big unicorn, and…

Dean: Is it still Unicorn now?

Naomi: Ah, it went public.

Dean: Wow! That was unicorn.

Naomi: Um, Yeah, I don’t know if public company counts as unicorn or it has to be private.

Dean: It’s Unicorn enough I guess.

Naomi: Um, It’s monday.com. They’re doing very well.

Dean: Oh, of course. Yeah. We see billboards everywhere with those guys in Melbourne. So, yeah, yeah.

Naomi: Yeah. Well, it started here.

Dean: Ohh, I didn’t know that it was Israeli.

Naomi: Yeah, yeah.  Monday.com it grew from Wix, which is also an Israeli business. Yeah.

Dean: Um, so they’re both Israeli?

Naomi: Yeah, they, a lot of times Israeli businesses will try to hide the fact that they’re Israeli, especially when they’re younger, because they want to be seen as more significant. So they’ll put their headquarters in New York or California. Um, like Check Point, Check Point is also Israeli.

Dean: Um, Yeah, I knew that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Naomi: Yeah, monday.com. So, I joined their, um, I think they had like 800 employees when I, when I joined. Uh, and I took over a lot of the I took over all the copywriting for the acquisition team. So, I worked with the Google team, Google campaign managers. I worked all with all of the social campaigns, the media buying, partnerships, affiliates, um, a little bit with LinkedIn and, um, did that for a while. And I felt like it was, um, there, there was sort of a limited amount of room to grow because Monday already had a really large content team. And I wanted to sort of start from the bottom, starting more of a small startup. Um, so I joined a small startup.  Um, and I worked there for a little while, it wasn’t a great fit, they were sort of having a lot of changes in management and direction, and, sort of looking around at the, at the startups available. I couldn’t find something that I really felt fit me, and there was an interview that I had, and, um, they, the interview didn’t end up working out, but, they, they ended up hiring me later, um, as a client. But, the head of sales told her boyfriend about me, and her boyfriend told his colleague about me, and he gave me a call and was like, you know, we need somebody to help us with our social media. And I realized, like, hmm, maybe this could be, maybe this could be a good project, it’s a cool company, it’s a nice, nice team, uh, they’re doing something meaningful for the world. And, you know, I kind of realized that I think when you’re hyper specialized, um, the way that I am, you hit a point where either you have to move into more of a management position or you’re, if you want to stay in house, you’re sort of gonna hit a little bit of a plateau. And I wanted to continue growing in my area of expertise.  Um, but I wasn’t necessarily interested in moving into more of a management level position. And I felt like freelancing would be a good option. And I’ve developed a lot of great contacts over the years working in this scene. And I was able to leverage those to launch this, uh, freelancing career. And now I’m looking to grow even further.

Dean: Wow! That was insane. I have done all this research through your website. I’ve combed through everything. I knew what website, what university you work for, all that stuff. And I did not know monday.com you were. So, what was your exact role at Monday?

Naomi: Ahh, yeah, I was a copywriter for the, it started off in the media buying team. And then I joined Google and social as well. Um, and yeah, I was a copywriter there.

Dean:  Yeah. So tell me about the um, approach that you took when you were working inside of that team, the juggernaut, which is monday.com.

Naomi: When I started there, there was no real system in place for developing copy. There were a lot of great content managers, working on blogs, working on enterprise, partnerships, but especially within the acquisition team. And at the time, um, Monday was spending a massive amount on acquisition. Um, because it was a hyper growth company. And there was no real system in place. Um, so I came in trying a bunch of things and eventually I developed a system. So, I did a lot of research. There was a lot of great product marketers but there wasn’t a lot of great voice of customer data available. Um, we had a lot of case studies but not exactly the same thing because case studies tend to be a little bit more polished and I wanted a lot of that raw data. So, I had a couple of different sources of voice of customer data. I went on gong, and just went through dozens of discovery calls of demo calls. And I created this massive dashboard, documenting exactly what, how people described their pain points, their, their goals and their ambitions and some of their doubts and hesitations, and then I divided that by company size. So small and medium businesses. Mid-sized businesses and, um, enterprise organizations. And then I verified that user testing, great tool. They have a feature that allows you to interview people and they’ll pay the people. So, they’re more likely to show up. So, I would interview a lot of people and, that was a little bit easier because I could focus really on getting my questions answered. And sometimes sales calls are focused on other things. And…

Dean: They also on those beautiful sales calls tell you what they want you, what they want you to believe to hear, you know what I’m saying? Like instead of instead of the truth, they’ll tell you what they want you to think.

Naomi: Yeah, yeah, and that’s where a lot of UX research comes in. I work very closely with the UX researcher there to figure out how to phrase questions, because the way you phrase, you’re exactly right, the way you phrase things really can impact the answer that they give you. And you want to leave it open-ended, you want to make sure to phrase it in a neutral way, so they talk about their experiences in a more, um, authentic way. And then when I, when I start writing copy, I would just take that and put it right down on the page. So, we would get information from product marketing like Okay, people are struggling with this pain point, but then I would be able to say, okay, well, how do they talk about this? Well, it’s not just overwhelming. It’s, they have a spreadsheet with 17 tabs open, or they, they are waking up in the middle of the night worrying about their to do list. Those were like Examples, where when you hear that, you’re like, oh my god, I totally know what they’re dealing with. Um, and  then I would take that, put it right down on the page, and then I would test it. So that was the third part. The research, the writing, um, and with the writing, using a lot of frameworks, traditional copywriting, problem, agitation, solution, is, is a big one. That’s pretty much a foundational one that’ll work in 99 percent of cases.  And, um,,,

Dean: Yep. Only providing they know they have a problem in the first place.

Naomi: Exactly, exactly. And then testing. And I think that what Monday taught, what Monday, empowered me to do was to really sit down with these campaign managers. And I think this is where a lot of copywriters, undermine themselves. You really need to sit down with these, with these campaign managers. And I think that a lot of times marketing teams are divided into campaign managers or people who work on changing bids and keywords and spread on, changing numbers on spreadsheets and people who are creative and you need to be able to combine those two worlds in order to do it effectively. So, I would sit down with them. I would look at the data, figure out what are we measuring? What are we optimizing for? What stage in the funnel is this? Do we want quality or quantity? Where do they go before they reach this page? All of those questions that you can really find detailed answers to in the data. And then we would test these things. So, sometimes that would be, we would throw it up on a user testing platform. I use Usability Hub, um, which is now I think called Lyssna.  Figure out what messages people respond to, what they think of it, do they understand the solution, etc. And then test it on the platform. So, I would run dozens and dozens of tests. It’d be on the headline, on the hero image, on the testimonials, on the copy, and I would say that you, no matter how good you are at marketing,  if you don’t test things,  you’ll never know what the, what the real answer is until you test it. Because again, people are unpredictable and irrational and you have to put your copy to the test to figure out what’s going to work.

Dean: hmm. Mm hmm.  Absolutely. And you need to get your own preconceived idea of what you believe your customer wants.  Out of the way.

Naomi: Exactly! And that was a big part of it. Like when I came in, we were talking a lot about efficiency, be more efficient with your team, get more done, accomplish your goals. And at least in a lot of the acquisition team, which a lot of the acquisition team was focused on more small and medium businesses. It wasn’t really an enterprise engine. And through, we kept running these, these taglines. And at some point I thought, why don’t we, why don’t we try something else? Why don’t we try something more related to control? And I think the tagline was, take control of your team’s work. Uh, super simple, right? And automatically, like immediately, huge boost. And it’s like, oh, like, cool.  Of course, like, why didn’t we think of that before? But you don’t realize these things unless you test them.

Dean: Yeah. And I think you also need to have the appropriate framework to test.

Naomi: Mm hmm.

Dean: So, when you run split tests, oh this is a perfect segue actually. How do you go about narrowing down the tests and the order of your tests? So, let’s start with, um, this monday.com example here. And let’s first, let’s focus on the ads side of things first before we talk about landing pages, because that’s the time, you know, kettle of fish, so to speak. So, Um, talk to me how you go about narrowing down the tests, prioritizing your tests, and then yeah, just run it, run us through the examples that you would use inside of a Unicorn.

Naomi: Uh yeah for sure. Um when it comes to ads, you’re right landing pages is different based. For ads I have a process and I think this is actually a great way to use ChatGPT. Uh, all of this voice of customer data that I have. And I’ll plug it into all of these templates I have. So, I have a document, um, with a swipe file that I’ve taken, like, successful headlines from all different copywriters. So, I’ve gotten them from books, from podcasts, from LinkedIn.  Uh, et cetera. Lots of different headlines from various industries. And I’ll take the voice of customer data I have and plug it in to these templates, these examples of successful headlines. And I’ll do like 30 of them. Uh, and ChatGPT is good at this because it can just give you like a hundred and then you can say I like these four, come up with more like that.  And do that until you get like sixty-eight. And then what you do is you create, you create banners for those. So put those on banners and then come up with two to three different designs. So that could be a picture of software versus a picture of more of an abstract design. That was something that we did a lot at Monday, trying to compare different approaches or something with people versus without people. And then we would take, uh, six of them and put them up on Usability Hub, which is now Lyssna and we would, there would be a couple of tests that we would do. First one would be in your own words. Explain what this software does. So we’d show this, the picture of the ad for five seconds. Then ask this, this question to see if they understand or if they understood what we were trying to convey. And that’s the most important, right? If people don’t understand what you’re selling, then you’re not going to sell anything.  Clarity is always number one. And then we would put up six and we would tell, we would ask people to choose which one they would, they like best. And I would say that 70 to 80 percent of the time, it would predict correctly which one would work when we put it live.  So yeah. And then we would run just dozens of these tests. So again, we would test the CTA, we would test the copy, we would test the image and then we would do like a March Madness, right? We’d like come up with like 25 and then narrow it down to 10 and then come up with like, compare them all to see what we could learn about it. And we learned a lot…

Dean: Yeah, yeah. It’s like, it’s like, it’s like element hunger Games basically. And you just gotta say which one cannibalizes each other and they work their way up. Yeah.

Naomi: Exactly, exactly.

Dean: Wow. And it’s, it’s so interesting, your approach at Monday. When they’ve got the big marketing dollars and they’ve got like the user groups that can go in there and ask the questions with like usability hub and Lyssna, and all those things. It’s such a different world to what most marketers get to experience in small companies. You know, like, we work with SaaS companies who are like pre-revenue and then we’ve got to work with, you know, Australian financial review, listed like unicorns as well.  And some of those of those early startups just don’t just don’t have access   to this approach. So, if you were speaking to a pre revenue startup and they want to go about testing their message with say, social ads. What would you give them so they could do it on an oily rag and get the results they really need?

Naomi: Yeah, 100 percent. So, ah you don’t need gong to record your sales calls. You can zoom can record your sales calls. So, I would say start there and just have your AE’s. Make friends with your AEs. They’re very, very helpful people. I know that marketers and sales, marketers and sales people live in two worlds, but we can learn a lot from each other.

Dean: I, I, I’ve got this theory, FYI. Um, I believe  every direct  response copywriter  needs to do some form of phone sales, enterprise sales, anything that involves selling, you know toes to nose and closing, basically. You know. So that’s my view. That’s my obscure view, but I agree. The AEs and your, and your sales reps and the copywriters, they need to become friends. So back to you, sorry, I hijacked you. Keep going, keep going.

Naomi:  Um, and then I would build on that actually, talk about customer success. Customer success in B2B sales is different from customer success, um, in more of a B2C oriented business because they’re working with these clients on an ongoing basis. And so, they are really good at telling you what success means. And I remember, like I got an, and also people don’t ask customer success as much. Their, their opinion is not usually elicited. Uh, to the same degree that sales is. So, they’re eager to provide you their opinion and you can get a lot of really, really great insights on what a successful, um, uh, what, what an ideal customer partnership looks like six months to 12 months down the line.    Um, so I’d say that’s number one. Get as many insights as you can.  And when it comes to testing, Usability Hub isn’t actually that expensive. You can start with like 30 to 50 dollars test if you want to dip your toes in as supposed to user testing, which is like a minimum 10, 000 dollars investment. Um, but Usability Hub is definitely, uh, cost, um, is definitely affordable even for small businesses.  And then I would say that you can test these just by putting them live, right? You can put up a lot of different ads and figure out which one is working. And I would say that in the beginning, you don’t want to worry too much about quality, because it’ll be hard to really quantify how many quality lead you’re bringing in. Because the sales cycle tends to be much, much longer with B2B. So, I would, that wouldn’t be my first concern. Of course, you’re bringing in a lot of useless garbage leads and you know that maybe this ad is not, is not putting forth the best message. Um, but, I mean, the ad that people click on is the ad that they like, and so you don’t have to overthink it. You don’t have to have huge testing platforms, or you don’t have to have Tableau, you don’t have to have a lot of money to do this. You can put it on, do it on a small budget, the ad that people like is the ad, is the direction you want to go. And then you iterate from there. So, you’re like, all right, let’s sit down and figure out why they like this ad. Is it the picture? Is it the message? Is it the.. I don’t know. Is it the phrasing? What is it? And then let’s try to go in that direction, come up with a bunch of ideas like that and go again and see what else we can learn.

Dean: Love this.  So, so, so, so, so so much love for this. Um, oh man, I, I can, if you have you got like a sister or something that you can work in my business? Like, this is just, ah, mmm, so good. Um, so like. Now we’ve gone past, you know, monday.com, Naomi. Then we went into small startup, Naomi. How has that changed? Because you’ve probably gone from this massive product led growth juggernaut, which I’m assuming has some sales led growth, components with demos and stuff, into this tiny little thing. And what, what were you doing in this startup? Obviously, you were writing copy to some extent,  but were you in a different vertical?  Were you, did you have a different value prop, which was radically different to monday.com? Was the sales process different? Was it sales at growth, product led growth? Like, how did you adjust?

Naomi: Yeah. It was a big transition. And it taught me a lot about more the product sales led growth or I can call B2B SaaS thing. And in start-up, I think the idea was, it was a check-out for B2B. So if you are selling steel, lumber, um, HVACs, whatever it is, you’re not going to have an e-commerce store where you can use Stripe for a 50, 100, 500,000 dollars purchase. Um, you’re going to need something a little bit more complex, more robust, something that allows you to offer net terms, credit to your customers. And you’re going to have to integrate that with accounts receivable. So it was a solution. It was a B2B checkout, if you will.  And does much more than that, but that’s sort of the elevator pitch and, um, it was a much longer sales cycle, much more complex and a much smaller budget, at a very different persona because if you’re dealing with payments, you can’t just get the team manager involved, especially in a more enterprise level organization, you’re going to have to get Directors, VPs, sometimes even C-suite members involved in the buying process. So, then you have to start thinking about the buying committee. Who are you targeting? Are you targeting the champion? Are you targeting the Decision-maker? Are you targeting the person who is going to deal with all of the operational side? Well, the answer is you’re targeting all of them and you have to figure out who you’re talking to when. So, I think that some of the, so there were a few key ways that I adapted all of my processes to this new startup. Um, so number one, when it came to writing copy, I did actually need to target more of the upper management. So instead of, I realized that instead of using, traditional PAS problem education solution, I had to adapt it a little bit. Why? Because a lot of the pain points that the solution solved were pain points for the people lower down on the totem pole. So, for example, having   a lot of checks in your office that you don’t have the resources to cash because you’re so busy. That’s the kind of thing that somebody a little bit lower down, would, would struggle with not somebody at the top. Um, so instead of using problem agitation solution, I used a different formula, desire objection solution. So, focus on what their desires were. Talk to customer success. They said, you know, a lot of these enterprise organizations, they really want to see their name across publications that they’re innovative and they’re adopting this new technology and they’re really pushing this industry forward. And so, I use that and I described what that could be like. Then I presented the objection, then I present presented the solution. Sometimes that was an e-book. Sometimes that was, um, a demo, whatever it was. So I honed in on that new persona in a way that was relevant for them. That was number one. And number two, I realized that, you’re not necessarily going to see the same, quick funnel. You have to acknowledge that people are going to need a lot more touch points before they’re ready for a demo. But if you look inside your marketing funnel, if you look inside your acquisition campaigns, you can see that, for example, if you’re running more YouTube ads, you’re running more LinkedIn ads, you’ll see more people searching for you on Google. So, even if they’re not clicking on those LinkedIn ads, or they’re not clicking on those YouTube ads, the same principles are still at play, they’re just looking for you somewhere else. So, maybe they’re looking for you on G2 or Capterra, but you can use the same kind of copywriting and just acknowledge that the user journey is going to look a little bit different and you can feel more comfortable in that when you can look at the data and understand what’s going on in a strategic sense.

Dean: Yeah, isn’t that interesting? The old P A S getting turned into D O S. And I love that.  So, you know, you obviously would declare the desire, or pique the desire, list their objections that they would normally throw up at throw up at this point, and then launch into the solution. And that’s essentially the copywriting framework you would use with your both MQL style ads and also your SQL style ads.

Naomi: Mm hmm.

Dean: Cool. Cool. So, here’s really an interesting point.  I’m assuming, you know Chris Walker from Refine Labs?  I’m Talking from one B2B copy to another. Of course you do. And what you’ve just mentioned here  was, okay, okay, we’re doing waterfall method in this business, but we also are benefiting  from like, like, not so not so much the deliberate impact of doing some form of demand  generation. But, You know, when you start running YouTube ads and then your search increases, that’s 101, right? So obviously demand generation is getting thrown  up a lot on LinkedIn if you’re B2B and you’ve got a pulse.  you know, Chris, I’m curious to know what your thoughts are as a conversion copywriter.  Handling this this desire to push towards more of a demand generation  approach. Because I know if it’s not just you, it would be definitely me and nearly every other copywriter who’s a direct response  cat.  We’ve all been taught about, you know, you need  to go about doing generating the lead. You need to go about Getting the booking, getting the demo locked in, ensuring that the person is going to shop on the call, and everything has to be super angular and  pointy, to drive metrics that  drive sales activity,  whether it’s revenue  or not. So I want to I want to know your take on this whole situation as a copywriter,  and what are you doing, and how are   you adapting?

Naomi: Yeah, I think it’s just about figuring out where you are in the funnel, um, but creating demand is really important and you just have to have the foresight to know that.  It’s not going to look like that nice, it’s not going to fit in a nice neat little box. It’s not going to look like a nice cute little funnel.  Because marketing is just not that neat and clean. That’s not how people buy and that’s not how people buy 50, 000 software packages.  These are big decisions.  So.  I think that you can take all of the principles that you, that have been relevant for copywriting since time immemorial and just adapt it to this new landscape. So for example, I’ve been doing a lot more social selling lately because a lot of startups just,  their, their budget is limited and they don’t have the kind of budget for marketing that they would have in 2021. And they’re startups, so of course they have a small budget. UAnd so they’re turning a lot more towards social media. And I think that social media is a really good example for that. Because you can take all parts of the funnel, and build it into your content strategy. So one day you’re going to talk about the benefits. Another day you’re going to talk about overcoming objections. So talk to the sales team, write down the top 10 things that people are concerned about. The top 10 reasons people are afraid to take that next step and turn that into content. So you’re getting all parts of the messaging package, just within your content strategy. And it’s not going to be like, okay, first you see a social post, and then you see an ad, and then you see a landing page, and then you see a demo, and then you sign up. Like, no, that’s not the way life works. But if you take all of those concepts and put it into your social strategy, then you can convey all of those important points and  communicate what you need to, to get people to sign up. And I think  that if you look at the revenue and the revenue is going up, like that’s a good sign, but it’s takes a little bit more  creativity and a little bit more patience and foresight.

Dean: Yeah, especially with social selling when you don’t have the huge acquisition budgets that you can just throw on, you know, paid ads like all day long. So, with social selling, how are you finding working as such a data driven copywriter when you’re doing so much work from an organic perspective where there’s less, you know, granularity as to what’s as to what’s performing? How do you, how do you manage, um, your campaigns in, in this environment?

Naomi: Yeah. So I think that with social selling, consistency is a lot more important than virality. Just because it goes viral it doesn’t necessarily going, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to bring in leads. I think it’s analyzing the campaign, analyzing the content in more of a holistic way.  So which kind, which kinds of content do well? So for example, I’m working with a company called Bee Hero. They sell IOT sensors to beekeepers and then, or they provide IOT sensors for beekeepers and then take those beehives and sell them to growers. Um, they’re in the business of pollination.  And one of the things that I realized very early on was that you could do a lot with employee spotlights. Now employee spotlights are a very common thing to do in, um, in a social strategy. But the way I, I did two things with it that I think were very successful. Three things actually. Number one, I used it to tell a story about the customer, about the, about the business instead of just saying, Oh, this is so and so. They like rock climbing and they work in their front stack developer and they, and we’re so glad that they’re, that they’re on our team. Like, okay, that’s nice, but like, if you take that person’s story and talk about the work that they’re doing, and the projects that they’re working on, and how they contribute to the company, then you are creating a piece of content that’s useful for sales as well.  And that was number one. Number two, I made it much more authentic. And I think that this is really why social selling is so valuable because you can create a persona through social selling that you can’t with ads. And so for example, instead of doing a very templated picture that’s branded and looks very polished, I would use a lot of photographs. Um, so in this company we use photographs where they’re out in the apiary. Working with beehives, because obviously that’s just so cool. Um, but like, there was one picture where the team had an offsite, and there was one employee who was out picking apples in a farm in the south. And he was sort of laughing, he had a bunch of teammates around him, and it was very candid.  Um, those are the kind of pictures that I really, really love because they bring that sense of authenticity. They convey who you are as a company without having to be, these are our values, and this is our culture, and this is what we believe in. You just show that by taking a snapshot of how the team is interacting, um, but you do it in a way that shows that. This is the value that this person brings to the team. And I think this, this is something that I learned actually on Monday. On Monday we were experimenting on Reddit. I don’t know why not more people are Advertising on Reddit, Reddit is a super cool advertising platform. And the Reddit campaign manager specifically told us, you have to use content that feels authentic. If it feels branded and polished, people won’t pay attention to it. And I think that that is also relevant for social media. When you write in a way that sounds authentic and sincere and candid and shows a little bit of who you are as a company beyond just, the polished brand then you can escape that kind of banner blindness effect that  causes a lot of users to ignore you and you can.  And then I think the third thing is getting all of the other employees on board. So I would say, let’s all show this, this teammate some love. Go ahead and like this post. And if you can get everyone to like it, in the first hour, then,  these posts would get like 50 to 100 likes. Pretty consistently.

Dean: Wow.

Naomi: So, yeah, I mean, That’s not something that I would, like you can, you can create reports, but I think the reports are not quite, they, they won’t tell the whole story, but if you look at the content that’s working and figure out why, and then find a way to repeat that, then you can build a really successful social strategy.

Dean: Yeah. To all the listeners that are tuning in right here, right now. I have just been dousing my notebook in absolute gold from that. That employee spotlight section is absolute genius. It’s red hot fire. I’m going to bring that to my agency. That’s brilliant.  Like, you know, instead of just being  like, Oh, this is Sam, he’s based  in Kenya. He likes throwing spears at lions in his days off, like, it’s not necessarily  that, but like, it’s more a case of he loves doing this sort of project,  this is what he sees future of advertising becoming,  this, this is something he’s really excited to roll out over the next three months, all  of a sudden, you’re selling without selling, because people are purely interested in people, not so much the business and the brand  itself.

Naomi: Yeah, and.

Dean:  Like, Oh,

Naomi: And yeah, tech in Israel is a really small ecosystem. So that person who’s being spotlighted has a whole bunch of friends in the tech ecosystem and they’re all going to be like, Oh wow, it’s so great that you were spotlighted! And they’re going to like it and say, Yeah, I worked with him. He’s such a great guy. Um, and I think that the key lesson from this is this idea didn’t just like, I didn’t sit down and say, Okay, this is going to be our content strategy for the month and everything has to be super planned out. I’m not I like being organized, but I like leaving a certain amount of room for flexibility for these ideas to come up. And this is just, I was sitting with the product manager, and I was like, you know what, why don’t we do a social post on you? And it was like six lines long, it was like, meet Yuval. Yuval is this task, and this is what he’s doing, and it was super short and sweet, um, and that’s where it came from, and I think that that’s where a testing mindset can really come in handy.

Dean: Geez. Love that. Love that. For, for those who are experimenting on Reddit, what have you found to work? Because I’ve spoken to a few people who have got really, really technical startups.  And they have massive success on Reddit, especially where there’s  like a community of say, programmers who use their platform or whatever, or anyone who’s got like a really  tech,  you know, that, that target avatar is like, whether they be a developer or a coder or a programmer, or just, just a flat out nerd. I’m one. So I’m able to call it. Like what, what did what did you find  work on Reddit during your time, whether it be with  Monday or any of the other startups  you work with.

Naomi:  Yeah. So I would say number one, figure out which ad forms work for you because the ad placement made a big difference. I want to say that we used comment ads. Um, although it’s been a while, so I could be, um,  I’m mistaken, but the actual ad format makes a huge difference, and that’s true on Twitter and Facebook as well, like video ads versus post ads,  um, so that’s number one, um, because you can’t, copy isn’t going to compensate for more structural differences. Um, but number two, we would use a lot of humor. So, for example, we would take that PAS formula and flip it on its heads. So, for example, we had one that said, How to be a  mediocre manager. Um, and then we put all the pain points, right? Um, so, take all of your ideas, or create a really, really long spreadsheet, and have long, long meetings, where you go over all of the points on the spreadsheet, um, and ridiculous things like that. Or, we would say things like,  this is sort of common, but it still works, like, oh, I love, um,  spending hours  Um, going through email threads said no project management ever. Um, right. Like I’m not the first one to come up with that, but if you can get a detailed example, like it’s, it’s funny. It still works. So I think that kind of sarcastic cheeky copy can really work on Reddit in a way that it doesn’t work on a lot of other platforms and are in a way that. You feel you have to polish a bit more, if you’re on other platforms, to  align more with the brand image.  That is so true.

Dean: That is so brilliant, by the way. And I love how you’ve just like put two and two together and being like, like, P. A.  S is always  about, you know, getting, hitting the pain point and then ending up at the solution by agitating   the problem. Right? Where you look at   these frameworks  that are quite unquote humorous sarcasm frameworks to actually go about selling your product,  It’s about flipping it on its head. Like, you’ve got this innate ability just to be able to look at anything. I’m not just saying ads because we all can see a copy paste copy you know,  sales letter, like any day of the week, or we can see ADA or,  the four P’s or whatever. Like we know how to pick up those typical ones, but is that something is that something that’s always been  within you. That being able  to see  like a  framework, and deconstructing that in whether it be like in pop culture or in on the internet, like  this is a skill you’ve  got. Like I’ve never seen this before.

Naomi: I mean, I, I think that it’s a skill that I’ve built by doing it over and over and over again. But it’s something that I love. It’s something that I’m passionate about. And I do think that it really comes from that creative literary side. I think that’s a huge advantage when you can think about these. people, these personas as people and embedded in a story, then it’s a lot more interesting. And like, I even had this exercise. I recruited the other copywriters on my team to help me with this research project. When we built this, um, we went through all of these sales calls. Um, I got my colleagues to help me and, um, we were trying to figure out what pain points we wanted to define as the main pain points. And one of my colleagues was sort of having a hard time articulating one of them and I was like, you know, just let me give you this person this person named Michelle. Michelle’s a middle manager in a Software company and she’s dealing with X like tell me about Michelle and instantly he was able to sort of shift his mindset and like he told me this whole long story about who Michelle was and what her day to day life looked like and how she struggled with her team members and what she was trying to convey to her upper manager she wanted to be promoted or she wanted to she was afraid of  not coming off as as Organized enough whatever it was  And he was instantly able to shift into that mindset and I think that everyone has it in them You Um, and it’s something that you build by finding examples and repeating them and coming up with new ideas. And if you are sort of tuned into the details of life, then you can really make them sparkle. And I think that’s, that might be my edge. Not that, like anyone can do it if they put in enough practice, but when, when, we think about poetry, we think about. Literature, sometimes we, it’s not the,  it’s not the material that makes it, it’s those details that really make it pop and really make it memorable.

Dean: Wow! It’s so true. Like really getting deep on the finer details  and  spending the time, understanding the human condition  and what it is to be human.  Because I think that  copywriting is not one of those  professions where you can brute force it. You need to be on your game every single day. And I  don’t believe you can write copy for 23 hours straight day in, day out, and create amazing work. Like you need to be fresh. It’s not one of those bits.  one of those, it’s not one of those businesses or professions where you can just write and write and write and write, right? What are you doing away from copy enables that enables  you to get to the tap into the human condition and understand what it feels like  to be human. Because at the end of the day, we’re all humans. we’re  all emotional, and all we  want to do is use logic to back up our crazy  decisions. So tell me about like what your process is  to figure out this whole  thing called life.

Naomi: Um, yeah, yeah, it’s so true. I’m a people watcher. I love people watching. Just like, uh, standing in cafes, there’s a great cafe culture here in Tel Aviv. Um, or sitting on the beach and watching how people interact, trying to guess, like, the relationship between two people, how they feel about one another, what they’re talking about, what they’re thinking about, if you do that long enough and try to  understand the situations around you, then you’ll pick up on some amazing details, like, um,  And it’s those little glances too, right? Like when somebody sees somebody that they haven’t seen in a long time, it’s like watching their expression and seeing how much they miss that person and how glad they are to see them. It’s like, it could be just a greeting on the surface level, like, oh wow, I’m glad to see, I’m glad to see you, it’s so good that you’re here, I haven’t seen you in a while. But like, if you watch their eyes, you can tell that there’s so many more emotions going on below the surface. And sometimes it just takes.  You just have to take a moment and like, sit in silence and watch like, what is going through that person’s mind. Um, and that could be at a cocktail hour, that could be at a cafe, that could be, that could be in the office. Like, these things happen everywhere and you just have to sort of pay attention.

Dean: Yeah. And you have to get out of your own way as well. Like, one thing that I used to do,  well first things first, I need to talk about people watching.  Next month, I’m going to be running my entire business from Paris, and I cannot wait just to be sitting at those cafes. You know how they all angle out to watching the streets. I cannot just wait and  sit on those corners in the old streets of  Paris with an espresso or an expresso, I don’t know how they  end up with the x in it, but it is what it is. My cafe, a lingerie or whatever, and a Cuban cigar, like. Maybe two to three days and just watch people and journal. That is going to be the best day of my life. I just love it so much that place, you know, but like, what are you doing? Are you doing mindfulness? Like, are you doing anything to like, get out of your own way when you observe these people?  And you try to deconstruct and understand what’s going on inside of you when  you see these stimuli, et cetera, et cetera. Like, is there anything that you’re doing that’s not just observing? How do you get to a position where to see you’re able to see it for what it truly  is.

Naomi: I don’t think that you can force it. I think if you try to make it too scientific, then you’ll come up with something that’s a little bit too plastic, a little bit too rigid. I think that you just have to absorb it and then your mind will sort of mull it over. And, you’ll never know when something might be useful, but if you just sit there and let it all come to you, then at some point, it’ll be useful. I have a good friend who writes a satirical newspaper, for, in Israel, sort of making fun of lots of ridiculous Israeli things, and, um, yeah, he tells me the same things, like, the ideas just come to me, and he’ll sit in a cafe, he has a pension because he’s been in the army for a long time. And he’ll just sit there and let the ideas come to him. Or he’ll like, this is also something he does, which I think is a great example. He’ll have people vent to him. Like, people will come with, like, their bad dating stories, or their stories about how they got ripped off, ripped off by somebody. And he’ll listen to that, and he’ll write that down, and he’ll turn them into articles for his numerical paper, which is hilarious. But, like, if you want a process, like, that is a process.

Dean: That is something.

Naomi:  It’s  like, no one will give you more details than somebody who’s like really pissed off at a store clerk or at uh, the last date that didn’t show up.

Dean: Oh, 100%, 100%. It’s really funny,  actually. I would say the peak of my direct response copywriting, career.  This is going to make you laugh.  Do you remember the toilet paper crisis that happened in Australia?

Naomi: Was it during COVID?

Dean: Yes. Everyone was buying the toilet paper and no one could access toilet paper. It was just insane, like literally, stockpile, you had to end up, if you didn’t paper towel have your own stockpile, paper. It actually had to use paper towel on your back side.   Literally and figuratively. Yeah. Um, anyway, but I remember  sitting in a cafe once when that was all going down, and I was just thinking  of the craziness that was going on. And if you, and I really tapped into what the average Australian was thinking about the whole  situation. And I noticed was that everyone thinks it’s madness and it was what we  call totally an Australian. But basically, the way of saying not on in my country. So, my friend and I decided to create a commemorative t shirt called the I Survived the Toilet  paper crisis of 2020  t shirt. And I remember writing  three ads. One just being like your typical, get your commemorative t shirt, blah,  blah blah. No sales. Ad two,  like an AIDA crappy framework  didn’t work.  But then I got really, really clever  and I insinuated in the longest ad you have ever  seen on Facebook. It was like  full, Gary Halbert  length ad that if you didn’t buy one, it was totally an Australian. And it was totally an Australian for toilet paper, and the only way you would show your  support the nonsense was by purchasing one of one of these t shirts. I’ll send it to you You’ll think it’s hilarious. It was like a full on story about people getting stabbed. and all sorts of crazy stuff.

Naomi: Amazing!

Dean: We sold 50,000 dollars worth of shirts in less than 3 weeks.

Naomi: No Way!

Dean: I had three or four of my friends try to rip me off and it was just insane.

Naomi: That’s unbelievable! 50,000 dollars!

Dean: Ending up on national TV, everything. It was, it was a time.

Naomi: Oh my God! Wow, power of copywriting, huh?

Dean: Power of storytelling. That’s why we are here with Miss StoryLogick self.

Dean:  So, um, so You know what I’m saying? Because it’s like, with story. If you’re because the thing is right, especially when you’ve got those a single ad, products, which are like totally unaware,  like people don’t have a problem.  You have to sell with story.  And you know,  if you’re able to communicate.  To those who are unaware  and take them from unaware to making a purchase in a single ad, especially in the world of e commerce,  that is essentially like throwing the Hail Mary throw at the Superbowl. So if you can do that as a copywriter, you’ve essentially, performed  a miracle.

Naomi: 100%.

Dean: Six times in a row, by the way.

Naomi: Wow.

Dean: Without any autobombs yet. Brutal.  I was just on fire, man. It was just going mental. Oh, everything you’ve been saying today has just been, like, resonating so beautifully and I just want to say that, like, I know our listeners have just been loving this so far, Naomi. But I’ve got a couple of more questions before we can wrap  this one up today.  Tell me about StoryLogick. Give me the rundown of everything that you’re  doing.

Naomi: Um, so, for StoryLogick, I have, a few different services that I offer. My main service is PPC, um, so ads and landing pages, sitting down with campaign, and I offer from A to Z. So sitting down with the campaign managers, figuring out what the campaigns are doing, what kind of ads and landing pages we need if we don’t have enough of them. Then creating them,  making sure that the design is on point, that the design is supporting the copy, and that it’s version optimized.  And then validating it, and then testing it. So it’s sort of A to Z. Not just providing the copy, but really understanding on a strategic level, what’s needed and why. So that’s really my…

Dean: So just for those.  So just those listening.  So you do not only the copywriting, but you also execute the design, the development, and the management of the ads as well?

Naomi: I don’t, um, I don’t manage the ads campaigns.  Um, but, and I, I don’t provide the design myself, but I’ll work with the designer to make sure that they understand what they need, um, because a lot of times designers are more focused on the design than the overall strategy and marketing philosophy. So I work with them so that they understand not what they need to design, but what kind of things we need to convey and what the goal is of each part of the page so that they can go and do their best work.

Dean: Amazing.

Naomi:  Yeah, cause I feel that  that’s sometimes a missing piece that it’s. Like, it’s such an important part of the process and you really need to be able to work with designers, uh, in a very collaborative way. And then a website copy. So, this is really important in start ups. Uh, we spoke earlier how   when businesses can adapt really, really quickly, they change.  So, for a lot of start ups, they have their website that they put up when they’re a series A, and a couple of series later, and they realize that their product is very different, their message is very different, their persona is very different, and they need a new, a new website. And this, I think this happens a lot of times for startups in like series C. And they’re ready to like, they’ve like reached product market fit, and they need to, you know,  shift more into scaling. Um, so, or sometimes it’s companies that they have a new AI tool and they want to adapt their messaging and they need to change their messaging across the board so everything’s consistent. That could also be a point. Um, so working with startups to figure out how to adapt their messaging, um, and how to write it in a way that is targeted and consistent and conversion focused across the board.  So that’s number two.  And then social selling. Um, social selling is a big part of what I do now. Because a lot of clients of mine are interested in it.  And again, this is really relevant for smaller startups. So it’s sort of one for every, every kind of startup. So social selling is oftentimes more relevant for smaller startups. The website is more relevant for mid level and then more upper level, series D, series  that are more well established, are more interested in, you know, Um, but  I, I’ve been developing a lot of, uh, social selling programs and workflows and systems that I use  and helping, um, Companies build their presence and establish more of a persona and reach a lot of their target customers I also find that this is really useful for b2b companies that are in more niche markets so as I mentioned be heroes in the agricultural space and it’s very difficult with traditional pbc to find Farmers, like farmers in Central Valley, California, you know, like, how do you find them? Are they on LinkedIn? If they are on LinkedIn, are they using LinkedIn? It’s not easy, but they are on social media. And if you’re consistent and you are providing relevant, useful content, then you can reach them. And I think that that’s a valuable tool for startups in more niche B2B spaces.

Naomi: Yeah, that’s awesome. You know, it’s really funny, actually.  I have a friend that’s a farmer.  No LinkedIn profile, but literally he drives his tractor around all day. He owns his own business. By the way, it’s like a contractor. He’s literally  just taking videos of him in his own Instagram driving his tractor, listening  to Luke Combs like fast car. You know like, it’s, it’s interesting to see  how like through the invent of  the mobile phone with the internet and social  media that you think the people who are most unlikely to take on a mobile phone, like just say,  farmers, as soon as soon as they adopt it, on the technology adoption life cycle, curve, they get straight into it and they find something that they love and they use it aggressively.

Naomi: And we also deal with beekeepers. I can’t tell you how many beekeepers are on Instagram. I never knew how large this world was until I started working with this company. There are so many beekeepers!

Dean: Yeah, yeah. it’s a, it’s a, it’s,  it’s a thing, man.

Naomi: Yeah, and they’re all over Instagram. They love it. I’ll tell you this whole Instagram feed is all, it’s pictures of bees in the hive, pictures of bee beard, beard, bee beards, pictures of, Bees swarms, pictures of bees on flowers. It’s amazing. It’s truly, truly a world unto itself.

Dean: Wow. That is actually amazing.  That’s too good.  Before we go, I’m going to ask about the Cello. How long have you been playing football?  And what are you, um, why the cello out of all instruments?

Naomi: That’s a great question. So I went to, I was lucky enough to go to a school that had a great music department. My high school had like two orchestras, three bands and like five choirs. Um, it was like the thing to do.  So I started when I was nine years old, everyone picked an instrument and, um, I did it all through high school, all through school. So age like nine to 18, then I stopped sort of in college and then I rented it, rented an instrument here and there. Cause obviously Cielo is quite an, quite an expensive instrument and it’s very fragile and very bulky. So not something easy to just like pick up on Craigslist. Um,  so,  um, so I eventually, when I, um, I finished paying off the rest of my student loans, that was like my reward to myself. I purchased a used cello and, uh, picked it up again and ended up joining this local orchestra, which is mostly retirees. Um, but it’s a lot of fun,  even though there are not a lot of members of my peer group, um, and why the cello? So I think that this is, you know, in Harry Potter, where like they explain that the wand chooses you. So I think it’s the same thing with instruments, because I think that people choose instruments that are sort of like them. Like, you’re never going to find an extroverted cellist, right? Like, cellists are more like, introverted and a little bit quiet. And, like, they’re not at the back, they’re not like the bass line, they’re not doing the bass just playing like, boop boop boop boop. They sometimes get the melody. Um, But yeah, I think it’s like the instrument chooses you. I don’t think that it’s uh, I don’t think it’s the other way around.

Dean: I couldn’t agree more  as a  jazz guitarist. There we go. Um, in the background. Um, yeah, a hundred percent.  Do you think there’s been a crossover between like your musical expansion and copywriting?

Naomi:  Interesting.  I mean the first thing that comes to mind is like Toni Morrison or James,  James Joyce because once you get into more of these modernist writers, they Um, like, uh, Toni Morrison, specifically, she wrote a book called Jazz. And she used a lot of, like, musical language in her writing. It was very poetic, even though it was a novel. And I think that if you can take that as inspiration,  then you can sort of insert  language or words or phrases in an unpredictable way into your copy. And that sometimes makes it really fresh. Like, using language that’s very sensory. Like using words to describe  certain sounds or certain colors. Um, that can be a really, really great way of infusing a lot of your copy. Um,  otherwise, I think that it’s really healthy, especially when you run your own business to focus on other things. And I think that music, music is a very complicated thing and you have to be focused on it. So if you can, it’s sort of a meditative experience. So if you have to focus on the music in order to play it, then you’re not focusing on work and forcing your brain to shift into a different mode. Gives it that time to rest and recoup. And that’s the kind of valuable time you need to come back to your copy with fresh eyes and come  with new ideas and new experiences to, uh, to use.

Dean: Couldn’t agree with you more,  like that is  so true.  Like I find this is just a weird correlation, but whenever I’m writing creative for my own business, so whether I’m doing this, the lead gen ads for marketing agency. There is direct correlation between me developing creative and having the guitar play. And it’s weird. They, they power each other along. Because I find them both very spiritually rewarding. I often see myself playing both guitar, coming up with the better ideas, writing, playing the guitar. And it’s just like this beautiful, like a vacation effect of greatness. Mm hmm. It’s amazing. Yeah. I’m glad that you did, it’s not just me that’s experiencing that, you’re getting the benefits as well, right?

Naomi: Yeah, yeah. You need to really find hobbies. Hobbies aren’t just to, to do something fun, they really enrich your life, life, and they help you think in different ways, and I think that using those different skills helps you in a mysterious way in other areas of your life for sure.

Dean: Yeah, yeah. I’m gonna actually give you homework after this. I really want you to understand  jazz language and jazz harmony.  Because there are so many, so many parallels between like, growth marketing and growth hacking and playing jazz languages.

Naomi: Interesting!

Dean: Hit me up! So basically you’ve got to look at a jazz standard as like a marketing calendar, like  what you’re looking, what you’re wanting to achieve, et cetera, et cetera.  Now, you know, with like really aggressive growth marketers, they have a dynamic market budget based on the amount of revenue they generate. If you think of that, that’s kind of like whether you’re forte or piano. In terms of your dynamic,  and basically  how your marketing campaign goes along. You have to often improvise from quarter to quarter, in alignment with the creative ideas that you need to generate.  For instance, just say you need to develop interest  in your marketing. That’s like developing a new improvisation over the same  chord progression.  So, if you look into jazz, and you look at  digital advertising, especially where you’re earning creatives quickly,  you are literally playing the business form of jazz  when it comes to growth hacking. So  if you look into jazz harmony, and jazz frameworks and the syntax of how jazz works,  it’ll blow your mind.

Naomi: All right.  I don’t know all that much about jazz, but it’s, it’s intriguing me. Yeah. Caught my attention.

Dean: Just, just pick up a tape of Miles Davis’s, um, the Blue Album. It’s the quintessential jazz album. Mm-Hmm. . Really easy to listen. You’ll love it. If you like music, that’s it, of course, right?

Naomi: A hundred percent.

Dean: Um,  two more questions and we’ll,  wrap it up.  Top five marketing books.  Go.

Naomi: Ooh, interesting.  Um, I actually think,  I actually think that people should read books that are slightly adjacent to marketing, um, because it really helps you figure out, um,  it, it helps you think outside the box. Um, so my favorite, or one of my top, um,  is Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss.  Yeah. That one’s a great one. Um, and there’s so much in there that’s a little bit counterintuitive, but very persuasion focused. He talks about mirroring, when he talks about getting to know, um, all of those things are super, super valuable. Um, Shieldini’s influence, that’s, that’s classic, you have to use that one. Um, and then there was another interesting one. Um, bringing it up on my Kindle app. Um, it was something I read a long time ago. And it was about, splitting the, or breaking the demand curve.  Um, let’s  see if I can find it. Trading Up. Trading Up by Michael J. Silverstein and Neil Fiske.  Um, super interesting book on how sometimes increasing the price actually causes an increase in demand, um, if you can help people  see your product as a form of experience. Like uh, Panera Bread was one of the examples that they brought up. That Panera Bread is not just the sandwich, it’s not just the food, um, it’s an upscale cafe experience. It’s sort of like your Parisian cafe transported into the US. I mean you can provide that kind of experience, you can really, you can increase the price, um, because you’re providing much more value.  Um, and increasing the price actually helps because people see it as more of a luxury item. But a luxury item that the middle class can afford, not a Rolls Royce. Um,  Russell Brunson’s Expert Secrets. Um, definitely in a different field than B2B SaaS. But he does an amazing job at breaking down exactly what people need to hear to take action. Um, so I think that’s a must read. He’s great. He’s a great writer, and he talks  in a way that a six year old could understand, but the concepts are really, really valuable.  And then,  I read a book recently called  um, Magic Words  by Jonah Berger, which I really, really liked. And he takes a lot of scientific studies and explains,  scientific studies about language and explains how that,  how, how people think and how you can use your words in a very strategic way, but all backed up by science. Um, so like for example, there was one study he talked about, um,  I’m not sure if I remember the exact numbers, but he said that they analyzed lots and lots of people’s emails, internal emails. And they found that people whose writing style did not align with the writing style of their peers were something like four times more likely to get fired. Um, Which is like a crazy statistic, right?  Um, and the idea being that you can measure how well somebody fits into the culture of a organization based on their writing style.  And I think those kind of scientific studies can really help convince you of the importance of messaging and copywriting. So I think that those scientific studies are invaluable.

Dean: Yeah, wow! I never heard about Trading Up and Magic Words. So, I’m gonna put them on my amazon.com wishlist.

Naomi: Yeah, let me know what you think.

Dean: Ohh. Hundred percent. Once I’m done re-reading Think and Grow Rich, Finalizing the implementation of, Buy back your time by Dan Martell, and then I need to read. It is a very significant copywriting book that I need to get my hands on. Oh, that’s right. Automatic Clients by Robert Neckelius and Alen Sultanic. I need to finish that one. Have you read it yet?

Naomi: I haven’t.  But I’m gonna write it down and add it to my list.

Dean:  Yeah, It’s pretty significant. For my understanding, Alen pretty much created the concept of you know creating the framework and absolutely delivering so then people pay the executions. Not a new concept entirely but the way how he breaks it down when it comes to product fit marketing. It’s pretty spectacular. See how it goes.

Dean: And to wrap up the podcast. I often do this with all the people I interview, and there’s not too many.  I do like to ask, what’s your message for the world and how do you want to make a difference?

Naomi: My message for the world at large?

Dean: Take it as you wish.

Naomi: Alright.  I would say that, I think my message would be about stories.  That stories are sort of embedded in, in our psyche. They’re how we view the world and how we understand the world  and  that  analyzing the stories that both that we tell ourselves  and that we’ve written down and stored in the canons of history,  um,  are some of the most powerful ways, some of the,  they serve as windows into, into our psyche. And I think that,  I think that storytelling gets thrown out, thrown around a lot as a concept. Um, but stories are fascinating, there’s so much to them, there’s so much complexity and that’s even amplified when you travel from culture to culture. The stories that they tell in China are not the stories that they tell in Israel, are not the stories that they tell in the US or Australia or the UK. And I think that when you can really double down on them and understand what they’re about, how they’re built, how they function,  why they’re there, it just opens you up to a whole new way. Of thinking and living in a much more fulfilling way.

That is epic. Thank you so much for being here.

Naomi: Thank you for having me. This was a great conversation.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


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Google Ads For SaaS Businesses: Everything You Need To Know In 30 Minutes Or Less

On this episode of the podcast, Dean Denny shares the exciting benefits of using Google Ads for SaaS businesses. He dives into the power of reaching targeted audiences through platforms like Search, Display, and Video campaigns. He emphasizes the cost-effectiveness and tracking capabilities of Google Ads, as well as advanced bidding strategies like CPC and automated bidding. He also highlights the importance of conversion tracking, remarketing, and conversion rate optimization for maximizing results. With optimization techniques such as AB testing, clear call-to-action, and unique value propositions, businesses can achieve better performance. Dean stresses the significance of analyzing trends, audience insights, and negative keyword lists to improve ROI, and the importance of continuous testing and staying informed on Google Ads changes for business growth.


[00:02:41] Maximize growth with Google ads.

[00:04:54] Cost-effective pay per click advertising for SaaS businesses. Target keywords, demographics, and interests effectively.

[00:10:54] Google ads offers CPC and CPA bidding. Automated bidding strategies optimize for conversions. Remarketing and conversion rate optimization are key for success.

[00:18:07] Optimize landing pages, ads, and keywords.

[00:22:56] Establish ROI metrics, optimize campaigns, track conversions.

Lessons Learned from the Podcast

  1. Understanding Google Ads Fundamentals: Google Ads offers immense reach and visibility, making it a powerful tool for SaaS businesses. Leveraging Google Ads allows you to target potential customers actively searching for solutions, maximizing growth and return on investment.

  2. Effective Targeting Strategies: Utilize precise targeting methods such as keyword targeting, demographic targeting, and interest/behavior targeting to ensure your ads reach the most relevant audience. Understanding customer intent and developing keyword lists aligned with their needs is essential.

  3. Bidding Strategies and Optimization: Familiarize yourself with bidding strategies such as CPC (Cost Per Click), CPA (Cost Per Acquisition), and automated bidding. Continuously optimize your campaigns based on performance metrics, conversion tracking, and ROI calculations to maximize efficiency.

  4. Advanced Tactics: Remarketing and Conversion Optimization: Implement advanced tactics like remarketing to re-engage with potential customers who have shown interest in your product. Focus on conversion rate optimization, ensuring clear and compelling landing pages aligned with ad messaging.

  5. Continuous Monitoring and Adaptation: Stay updated with Google Ads platform changes and trends. Regularly analyze performance insights, conduct A/B testing, refine targeting strategies, and optimize campaigns to improve efficiency and ROI over time.

This is Open Source Growth, Australia’s number one SaaS marketing podcast hosted by me, Dean Denny, founder and director of Owendenny Digital. Get ready to deep dive into a world of direct response advertising. Unlock the mysteries of digital marketing, master the art of copywriting and drive massive revenue growth with cutting edge customer acquisition strategies, from product led growth to sales led growth. We’ve got it all covered, and that’s not all.

Join us as we sit down with some of the brightest minds in our industries, founders, CMOs who’ve been where you are and have made it to the other side with stories to tell and wisdom to share.

We’re not just about the strategies in the how to’s, we’re here to fuel your drive with a heavy dose of motivation because in the world of SaaS, it’s not about knowing the path. It’s about charging down with all you’ve got. Whether you’re looking to double, triple, or even 10X your SaaS company this year, Open Source Growth is your ticket to the big leagues.

So plug in, turn up the volume, and let’s get your SaaS rocketing to new heights. Because here it’s not just growth. It’s exponential growth served with a side of fun and a sprinkle of the extraordinary.

Welcome to Open Source Growth. Let the adventure begin.

It’s Dean here! Welcome to Open Source Growth.

And in today’s episode, I’m going to give you everything you need to know about Google ads and growing your SaaS business in 30 minutes or less.

So let’s just get straight into it. So, It’s 2024, and if you’re a SaaS business, You will constantly face the challenge of standing out.

In the crowded online marketplace, commanding attention, driving traffic to your website and driving people into free trials or demos for your business.

Now Google ads, as you can imagine, is an incredible platform for you and your business because it drives people who are actively looking for your products and services are your software company in any given market. And it enables you to tap into the people who are already looking for a solution to drive them to your solution. To essentially help them on their way and achieve their customer goals.

So in this episode, I’m going to dive into everything you need to know about using Google ads to grow your SaaS. From setting up your first campaign to advanced optimization techniques. I’m going to cover all the key strategies to help you maximize growth and improve your return on investment from your Google ads campaign in 30 minutes or less. So let’s just get straight into it.

Google ads, as you can imagine, generally refers to the advertising.

When you search something in Google and when you see your results page, the top three placements our ads because companies like yours are paying to rank for particular keyword search terms who wish to essentially drive traffic of those users who have what we call search intent to their website, to get them to participate in their products or services.

Now, Google ads has like this real three-pronged effect. And this is why it’s such an absolute game changer for most SaaS businesses. Number one, the reach and the visibility you get from Google ads is immense. It’s immediate and it’s the world’s largest search engine, meaning that there are more people looking for software solutions on. That search engine, being a Google ads. Then anywhere else on the planet.

Youtube, Dock Go, being nothing comes close to the Google platform when it comes to people, looking for answers to help them. Google ads because of its unique approach of targeting. Key words, which is different to say Facebook where you target either interests or audiences or demographics or locations enables you to have a very precise means of targeting people based on their keyword, alongside their location ,alongside the device that they’re searching fromand more. To ensure that all your ads are shown to the relevant audience. And what’s really powerful about Google ads too, is that depending on the niche you’re in, and again, there’s a real big caveat. We’re here really depends on the niche you’re in is quite cost effective. It’s not like that. You have to go about dropping $10,000 on a billboard every month and you can’t track the performance with pay-per-click advertising. SaaS businesses only pay when someone clicks on their ad.

So it’s quite cost effective. If you’ve got a campaign and you’re targeting some really obscure keywords, maybe it might be like dog washing company operations software. Hypothetically. There may only be a hundred clicks that you could generate at any given month, and you may be only paying 30 cents per click.

And just so you play, you want to go out on a limb and say, oh I want to see if we can acquire customers who are dog washing studios or sell ons. You only are paying when people are clicking on the ad. So at the end of the day, it’s very cost-effective. You can dial it up or dial it back to generate the results that you want when you start using some general metrics. So not only with Google ads that it focus on those ads that you see on those search engine results pages.

Google has a suite of platforms and the big three. Search, which are the ones that you, everyone knows, loves, which are again, what do you see at the top of the Google search engines results page. We have display campaigns, which are essentially remarketing campaigns, which can be text-based. They can also be image based and they’re quite powerful. That’s on what we call the Google display network. We’re not going to go too much into that today, but again, that is something that you can explore.

And what Google also offers is a video campaigns also known as their YouTube ads platform which enables you to engage with potential customers with compelling video content about your platform. And it’s really ideal to run YouTube ads when it comes to explaining complex products, because you have a longer form approach to tell your story again. Don’t really want to go too much into this one today, but it is worth mentioning.

Now, when it comes to targeting your audience, where do you start?

The beautiful thing about Google ads is that it all comes down to the keywords. What are people actively searching in your market that you can help them out with. Now, when it comes to grouping your keywords, there’s many different ways you can look at it. Now, one of the things that we love to use inside of our marketing agency is what we call the UPSYD framework.

U P S Y for yellow D for door. So it’s like unaware of a problem, aware solution, aware your solution, where, and deal and offer aware. Now. Google ads is really powerful when it comes to that stages of customer awareness of people that know they have a problem or they’re looking for solutions.

So for instance, you may have a problem. How do I track where all my cust, where do I track all my leads? And essentially. That is a problem statement or a problem question. Which you can then go about targeting Google ads with so you can really focus on that problem. Solution style dynamic ad. But you can also focus on ads, which are more around the solution.

So just say you have a dog salon operations software. You may be able to target things like dog, dog wash, dog wash software, dog opera, dog cell on studio software. pet business, operation software in Melbourne. There’s some many different ways you can go about targeting people and it can come down to commercial intent, transactional intent, information intent, or navigational intent. When it comes to developing out those keyword lists, though I’d strongly urge you to investigate a tool like SEM rush and a hatred. The refs to go about building this out, but most importantly, through developing your right ideal customer profile avatars. You’ll have an understanding of what people are looking for.

What other software are they looking at? What other things that they purchasing in? What are the conversations they’re having with their friends and family and their vendors about what do they do? What they don’t like, what do they hate, et cetera, et cetera. So if you understand what their general conversation is you more than likely going to get it right when it comes to developing at your keyword. Lists, which you can target from. So that’s one way of building out those lists and also determining a way in which you can place your ads in front of people who are actively looking for you and your products and services.

Now there’s also demographic. Targeting way you can focus on people on a particular age group, a particular gender. A particular income and more too, so you can reach the demographic.

That’s most likely to convert now. Is this always the best way when you’re playing with small budgets? Definitely not. But if you’re playing with bigger budgets, save your spending over the $50,000 a month. This is where this can come really handy and for more complex. Google ads strategies. Now there’s also what they call interest and behavior targeting, where you can target people based on the websites they frequent and what style of websites and what interests they have, which could align with your software business to like, Hey, this is quite possible.

So again, these are more complex, a more sophisticated bidding approaches other than keyword targeting. And it’s worthwhile playing with this. If you’ve got a more long. Form slash a massive investment in PPC. You can play here in these realms, but when you get started, not necessarily the best thing to do.

Now let’s talk about the essentials or bidding strategies, because I know bidding strategies get spoken about all the fricking time.

When it comes to Google ads. Are you doing more automated bidding? Are you doing manual bidding? Are you doing super your suit? Like it’s really crazy. And from my understanding, And from my experience as a Google partner, there’s really only three things you can look at.

There’s you’re either bidding on clicks, you’re bidding on acquisition, or you’re letting Google do its thing with an automated bidding strategy. So you can bid. For what they consider CPC or manual CPC, which enables you to track how much you spend per click. Because at the end of the day, that’s how Google gets paid. It’s for every click that they could generate for you. That’s what you get paid for. And again, you determine the budget as to how much you want to spend. So you can go about pushing the cost of your clicks up or down. If you want more traffic, you’d be bidding higher. If you’re wanting less traffic, you’d be bidding lower. And then again, you can look at your ROI. Whether it comes from your revenue reporting or your CRM to see how these are things that performing. So again, that’s one thing you can go about exploring.

The next thing you can go about exploring and this is a more sophisticated strategy, which is CPA bidding or cost per acquisition bidding, which focuses only on conversions. Pain. When a user takes a specific action, like signing up for a free trial or booking a demo or calling your company. These are really powerful. And this is what can be a semi-automated bidding strategy which enables Google to do its best to suggest rate the results that you want. And then finally there are automated bidding strategies that uses Google’s AI in a full gas kind of way to optimize for conversions or conversion value.

And this is great for maximizing the results with less manual management. For instance, just say, you want to transition your campaign from maximum clicks, which is an automated bidding strategy to say maximum conversions, which is another automated bidding strategy. That enables Google to be like, okay, cool.

All we’re trying to do is generate as many leads as possible for this person. Now, in order for this to work, though, you do need to have the conversion data in built. So it’s absolutely critical that you get your conversion tracking setup. So well from the start.Then you’re able to track all that information and then feed it back to Google so then you can go about getting better and better results as things go on.

One of the things that I do like about HubSpot in this sense is that HubSpot plugs in pretty well with your Google ads campaign, or can often take care of a lot of this for you. I’d still urge you to go about getting a professional team like us to go about establishing your conversion tracking stack for your, have a go at this on your own. But again really crucial get this happening. And that’s, what’s really going to give you the edge when it comes to making things working

Now, these are like the basic ins and outs that you need to know when it comes to the Google ads platform itself. But what if you want to go be on the basics? Let’s talk about some advanced strategies. That’s really powerful.

For Google ads experts and companies who are looking to really push Google ads beyond the limits. Now. The first things we were speaking about, believe it or not. That was really the inside of Google ads. I want to talk now about not only advanced strategies inside of Google ads, but I also want to talk about the things that we really get to completely geed up at Owendenny Digital which is where you actually driving the traffic to. Because at the end of the day, nearly anyone can write a pretty good Google ads, ad copy and get a campaign up and going and whipped up and driving it. But if you’re driving it to a dog shit landing page, nothing is going to convert.

So let’s unpack some of the more advanced things that you can be doing to get your Google ads campaign to freaking saw online.

So let’s just start off with something which I freaking love, recommend absolutely everybody and it’s the power of remarketing. What you need to do in order to get the business who don’t convert to re-engage with your brand. So why would you be doing remarketing?

First things first, it increases your conversion rates. When you’re targeting users, who’ve already been on your website, who’ve already shown interest. What that will do is actually drive the hottest traffic that you have inside of your entire marketing funnel back to your website. To go about signing up to that free trial or to booking that demo. It’s a freaking amazing thing that you can do.

The other powerful thing about remarketing is it increases this thing, what we call brand recall, which is a fancy way for saying, do users remember your brand? And it keeps your brand top of mind, encourages them to come back to your website when the making decisions does all sorts of amazing stuff. And the cool part about remarketing, especially when you’re using display ads, or even if you do something really tricky where you run your ads to get people to your website via Google, but then you do remarketing on social enables you to create tailored ads based on the user’s previous interactions, ensuring that the messaging is super relevant and super persuasive.

So for instance, just say, they’ve been on a page. Which is a particular niche feature of your dog wash software which is about booking a calendar feature within your dog wash software. Basically what’s freaking amazing here is then you can go about targeting people all over the internet, whether it be on the Google display network or the Facebook ads audience network. With content around how easy it is to book people into your workflow.

So then you can essentially have dogs coming in left, front, and center and booking appointments and getting haircuts all day long. So you can do some really powerful things for remarketing. And I totally recommend you go about doing it.

Now, when it comes to remarketing, that’s one side of this, but the thing that really gets overseen all the freaking time is the conversion rate optimization for your software company and the key thing.

And I’m going to say the most important thing here that you need to get is the landing page. If this landing page, isn’t clear, it’s not aligned with your ads messaging. It doesn’t have a great user experience. It doesn’t have a really solid transformation. It really paints what your software does in a really clear, succinct way.

So people go, oh shit, no wonder. I want my app to be engaging. XY.Zed app for my business. It’s game over. It’s freaking toast. So you really need to ensure that. So you’ve got to have an insanely good landing page to ensure that when you drive traffic to your website, there’s no conversion bleed points the click off to other websites or other pages on your website, because it’s going to just not encourage the user to do anything of value at that point.

So again, you need to ensure that your landing pages are optimized to generate the conversion event that you want, whether it’s free trials, phone calls, booked calls, demos purchases, like whatever the hell it has to be. It needs to be doing that.

Then you’ve got AB testing. Now, AB testing is a more advanced thing where we go about testing different elements of your ads at different elements of the landing pages to find out what works best over time. If you’re spending big money here, the AB test makes sense. Or if you’re spending not so much money, but you’ve got long amounts of time to test particular tests for that’s.

Okay. We can do that here. The big things that you want to go about testing with an AB test are themes that scream, not the things that whisper. So headlines, videos, whatever happens above the fold. They’re like the main three things that you need to see on your landing pages and test them over a period of time to go about driving your customer acquisition costs down. Now, one of the key things about ensuring that your landing pages are good and your ads are good.

Not only to ensure that you’ve got congruency between your ads and your landing pages, but to ensure you’ve got a really clear call to action, which makes. Sense. It has to be compelling. It guides the users on what’s going to happen next. And it’s. It’s just like super crucial for conversions. Now. Finally what’s actually, no, it’s not so fun.

And they’ve got a couple more things to Mount and talk to you about today. What’s really key here as well, is that you need to then think about, okay we’ll get the landing page optimized. How do we really ensure that these ad copies are good? Now. When it comes to these ad copies. You’d need to ensure it’s compelling.

And the way we do that is ensuring that we’re focusing on the benefits. I either transformation. How are you improving the problems in the user’s life? Like how are you giving that? Oh, wow. My life is so much better. The more you just list features. The more you talk about yourself and no one wants to hear about you. They want to know about how you can help them remember WWI, FM.

It’s literally the most listened to radio station on the planet. Why? Because it’s called what’s in it for me, FM, if you know what I’m saying? So get that right. Now I can get that done. You want to ensure that you can embed some form of emotional triggers into your ads. So incorporate those emotions that make your ad relatable. Make them persuasive and ensure that they drive action. And then finally ensure that your value prop is crystal clear.

And I really want to say that you need to clearly articulate the unique value that you and your software company bring to the marketplace. And how do you set yourself apart from those competitors?

Now step four from the advanced tactics are utilizing some high level keyword research to refine your targeting and increasing your relevance.

I did say at the start that as a basic thing, you should at least use like the Google keyword planner. And if you can’t afford to spend the money on SCM rush and IHF reps. But what you also want to consider is what are your competitors doing? What are they spending money on? How can you understand and uncover the targeting that they’re using?

So you can identify unique opportunities for you and your own strategy. And that’s going to make a massive difference. When you get to a more advanced level, you start focusing on longer tail keywords, longer phrases, things that are more specific. So you can capture leads with even greater intent than before. Instead of choosing a keyword, which may just be like marketing, CRM marketing software, it might be. And dog wash CRM marketing software, or CRM marketing pricing CRM marketing reviews, go deep on those longer tail keywords so you can increase the intent.

And when you’ve got really high intent and you’ve got really the spark searches and very cool Gruin matches between the search and the landing page. He had some insane results with Google essence and very low cost. Customer acquisition costs whilst having extreme. Customer lifetime value. That’s a recipe for scale, by the way.

And then finally, and this is what the power of working with a world-class agency like Owendenny Digital is that you need that continuous optimization. I regularly update and refine your keyword list. Constantly evaluate your bidding strategies and then constantly improve your on your performance status so you can ensure that you’re increasing your relevancy and your efficiency at every step.

Now. Once you start going through obviously the basic steps and then you were advanced steps. What can you do in terms of like, how do you measure success? First things first. You need to set up conversion tracking now at the start of this call and parts of this call. It’s a podcast. The thing is at the beginning, you need to ensure you got your conversion tracking set up properly. You need a Google tag manager, google analytics, you need to track your conversions from Google ads. Not just importing your tracking from your Google analytics and then importing that into Google ads.

That’s a last case scenario. Google ads and Google outer lakes aren’t best friends. They’re relatives, but they’re not best friends. So you need to go about tracking your conversion tracking. Using the Google ads, conversions tags. And not just Google analytics. So first things first, you need to get that established, right?

When it comes to setting up your conversion tracking, the next thing you need to do is then determine what does the ROI look like for you and your campaign. So if you can establish some form of ROI calculation . If I’m spending $2,000 on Google ads and I want to make, say $5,000. What sort of metrics do I need to hit?

How much do I need to be paying per lead? How many dollars do I need to be paying per demo? How many leads do I need to generate, et cetera, et cetera. And then you can start to figure out exactly what your metrics must be. When to go and when to say no to running and spending more money with big alphabet. The second thing you want to consider as well is how do you go about optimizing the campaigns to ensure what’s driving conversion?

So when you’re looking at your ads, you don’t just want to go spend willy nilly. You want to see, okay, cool. Cause we’ve set up the conversion tracking. We know how much we’re spending. We knowing how many conversions you’ve got and we know how many phone calls this is turning into. That’s fantastic.

So once you’ve got all that, you can then properly allocate your budgets. Now, when it comes to conversion tracking as well, we do strongly recommend that we use something like a CRM to manage this as well. We’re massive advocates for HubSpot. Why? It’s dead simple. With HubSpot, you can essentially track all of the contacts and all the booked calls that come through your Google ads campaigns in a very integrated way. So if you do have HubSpot, if you do run Google ads, campaigns, that is the shit that you need to do is freaking amazing.

Now. When you start looking into that, you probably want to pay a deeper layer. Because you’ve got conversion tracking, you figuring out ROI using HubSpot and you starting to see contacts coming through.

This is all great. But then how do I really understand what’s going to be happening in the next three, six to 12 months? It’s pretty simple. You need to go deep and look at your performance insights. You need to look at your trends analysis and you need to understand your audience insights. Why?

First things first with your performance enzymes, you can then go about looking into which ads keywords and targeting options are performing better. So you can, okay these things perform really well for our brand. You can then look at your trends. What happened over the last three months, six months, 12 months, three years.

So you can understand what’s happening over time. That’s affecting your campaign performance and can guide strategic adjustments. And then finally your audience insights. See Who’s converting. Why are they converting? And what can you do to ensure that you can generate some more targeted marketing efforts, which can just get you more results?

It’s pretty, pretty simple. Once you’re doing all this analysis. It’s no good. Just like sledding it, sit there and think, oh, I can’t do anything now. No, you can’t. This is when you get into it. This is when you go about implementing new strategies to improve your return on advertising spend or your ROI and reducing the wasted spend because you will, through this process, find campaigns that are performing. So this is the time when you really go deep on your negative keyword list. Add negative keywords on a monthly basis, prevent ads from showing to people who are totally irrelevant and reduce your ad spend.

So then. Reducing your wasted spend. So you can then go put more money back into those performing campaigns. What’s another really cool expert feature here is scheduling your ads to run at the right time. Now, this isn’t so much. A problem with software companies. But I do know that this is really powerful when it comes to say you’re all like a pizza shop and you’re only open from say midday through to 8:00 PM.

You don’t want to be running ads at eight o’clock because he can’t take orders. So that’s something that I would say is really interesting. I would go about leaning into ad scheduling and see what you can do if you’ve got so customer support and stuff like that, they’re doing around the clock.

Yeah, fine. But sometimes you may just want to run the ads whilst your team is in the building. Just a thought. And then finally, there’s this thing, what they call the quality score improvement. This is a metric that you can evaluate with Google and optimizing for the Google’s quality score. It can reduce the cost per click, which can improve the ad positioning.

And then more importantly, And more enticingly enhance your overall ROI. Now. There’s a lot here and things change and things move all the time. So I think it’s really crucial to ensure the Google ads. You are like staying and keeping up to date with all of Google’s updates. And the best way to do that is ensuring that your sign up like the Google partners newsletter, or any of the Google newsletters that come through. There is courses which Google make available for free for good people like yourself to get started on this. There are always changes in this platform like all media buying platforms. For some reason, the platform has just don’t want things to stay the same for the next five years. They are constantly doing things and they’re doing things and doing things, but. Apart from trying to listen to a guru like myself or one of the other people that you’ve probably listened to on a podcast.

I really do want to encourage you just to be testing and experimenting with this platform all the freaking time. Get into it. Haven’t been a fun. Look what these new. Bidding strategies or platforms and these new placements can provide for you because at the end of the day, the more tweaking you do, the more unique opportunities you may be able to uncover.

And if you can uncover a really good, unique opportunity, your business could explode. So guys that is everything you need to know. About Google ads and helping your SaaS business succeed in 2024.

If you want anything else from me, if you want to book a call with us at Owendenny Digital see how we can leverage everything you’re doing in your Google ads campaign and take your campaign from one X to save five X in 2024.

We are just a click away. All we need to do is to jump into the show notes and click the book of meeting now link. I’m not entirely sure what the CTA. It is. Oh, it should be. The marketing person should know that, but anyway, it will be there, but you know what, if you are looking to grow your SaaS business in 2024, 2025 and the rest. Hit us up. We’re Australia’s number one, SaaS marketing agency. For a reason, jump into the job notes, click any of those links, book a call with me and we’ll get to helping you and your business succeed in 2024.

I hope this has been massive. And may you have your best year yet? I’ll talk to you soon, bye bye!


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠⁠⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠⁠⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

Breaking Free_Overcoming Excuses to Unleash Your Potential

Join Dean Denny on Open Source Growth as he reveals the secrets to overcoming excuses and challenges for personal and professional growth. Through captivating stories of triumph over adversity, Dean showcases the transformative power of perseverance and self-awareness. From encounters with American Express representatives to roadside assistance workers, these stories inspire listeners to identify and challenge their own excuses. Dean emphasizes the importance of setting clear goals and seeking accountability partners to stay on track. Discover the mindset shifts and strategies that will help you focus on what you can do, rather than what you can’t.

[00:01:47] Excuses limit us from potential. Podcast.
[00:02:47] Unexpectedly positive phone call experience. Human resilience.
[00:05:34] Flat tire, one-armed man saves day.
[00:07:52] Excuses are fear-based defense mechanisms.
[00:12:13] Excuses hinder growth, take action now.

Lessons Learned from the Podcast

  1. Excuses Hold Us Back: Excuses are described as subconscious defense mechanisms that prevent individuals from facing their fears and stepping out of their comfort zones. They often stem from a fear of failure or a fear of how others will perceive us during the learning or beginner stages of new endeavors.

  2. Excuses Prevent Goal Achievement: When individuals rely on excuses, they hinder their ability to reach their goals. Excuses may manifest as blaming others or external circumstances for one’s own shortcomings or lack of progress.

  3. Excuses Are Addressable: Excuses can be identified and challenged through self-awareness and introspection. By examining the validity of excuses and considering alternative perspectives, individuals can break through mental barriers and take action towards their goals.

  4. Accountability is Key: Having an accountability partner, whether it’s a spouse, friend, or colleague, can help individuals stay on track and hold them to their commitments. Accountability partners provide support and encouragement while also providing constructive feedback when necessary.

  5. Shift from “Can’t” to “Can” Mentality: It’s important to shift mindset from focusing on limitations and what can’t be done to focusing on possibilities and what can be achieved. Goals should be used to drive actions rather than allowing circumstances to dictate inaction.

  6. Take Action and Make Greatness Happen: The podcast emphasizes the importance of taking action and overcoming excuses to achieve greatness in both personal and professional endeavors. By challenging excuses and committing to growth, individuals can unlock their full potential.

This is Open Source Growth, Australia’s number one SaaS marketing podcast hosted by me, Dean Denny, founder and director of Owendenny Digital. Get ready to deep dive into a world of direct response advertising. Unlock the mysteries of digital marketing, master the art of copywriting and drive massive revenue growth with cutting edge customer acquisition strategies, from product led growth to sales led growth. We’ve got it all covered, and that’s not all.

Join us as we sit down with some of the brightest minds in our industries, founders, CMOs who’ve been where you are and have made it to the other side with stories to tell and wisdom to share.

We’re not just about the strategies in the how to’s, we’re here to fuel your drive with a heavy dose of motivation because in the world of SaaS, it’s not about knowing the path. It’s about charging down with all you’ve got. Whether you’re looking to double, triple, or even 10X your SaaS company this year, Open Source Growth is your ticket to the big leagues.

So plug in, turn up the volume, and let’s get your SaaS rocketing to new heights. Because here it’s not just growth. It’s exponential growth served with a side of fun and a sprinkle of the extraordinary.

Welcome to Open Source Growth. Let the adventure begin.

Hey. How are you going? It’s Open Source Growth and welcome! You’re speaking with Dean, Founder and Director of Owendenny Digital.

In today’s podcast I don’t want to get into marketing. I don’t wanna get into sales. I don’t want to get into anything to do with software, and I want to get deep into the heart of what is holding us all back and these evil little insidious forces that lie within each and every one of us that limiting us from reaching our full potential and you probably guessed it.

I want to talk about excuses today. But before we do, I want to tell you why this podcast has come at this time. I’m recording this on the 5th of March, 2024. A couple of weeks back. I was in the car and I got a phone call and I was sitting in the car with my wife, Hannah. And if those who follow along. You all may know, Hannah is my beautiful wife and she’s also a copywriter at Owendenny Digital, our marketing agency. And, we received a phone call from American express. I know. I want to just be fully transparent with you guys here. I’m human. And I believe that you listening to this podcast are human too. And when I received the phone call from American express. I wasn’t entirely sure. What. To pick up. And I remembered as I picked up the phone. That all know I’ve I forgotten to pay my credit card in full this month.

I pick up the phone expecting it’s going to be a very hard conversation for this American express rep to have. Not because of the fact that we haven’t paid the credit card down. It’s more a case of. Or not even just so much paid the credit card down, but just forgot to pay. But the often grueling conversation that I can only assume other people who receive phone calls like this from American express, what this situation can play out and be, and how the person on the other side of the phone could take it.

Now, if you’ve received phone calls like this in the past, normally. The person on the other end of the phone is very much thesis, the way things are. You need to pay your stuff. Otherwise, this will happen to you. Very fear, uncertainty, doubt. Little empathy. Towing the company line. And generally very competent when it comes to communicating on the phone.

But when I picked up, I heard this incredible human being who started very incessantly battle through a phone call. He’s stuttering. Didn’t really improve throughout the phone call at the beginning, it was very bad. I can only assume anxiety and stress must have made it very difficult, but this fine gentlemen with his own set of challenges battled through that from cool and put up a marvelous fight and not only a marvelous fight delivered one of the most incredible American express experiences that I had received as a customer of theirs for over five years.

Now, why am I telling you this? It just made me think that. Against all odds, human beings can be amazing and they can overcome the most incredible things that are put in front of them on this planet. This young man with a startup was doing essentially almost a sort of phone sales job. And was making it happen and he was doing. Bang up job, all that. See, If you’re afraid of making phone calls and you don’t have a starter, that’s one gift that you’ve been given by God. There’s also in my local area.

I live in the Geelong region of Australia. There’s also a very famous roadside safety man, that works for the RACV, which is the biggest insurance company in Victoria. And, I remember one day, my old car, my Volkswagen golf had a flat tire and I had to get someone to help me out because for some reason The locks were seized and there was a couple of other issues with the car at the time.

And I called the RACV company and they were going to send some person out and they did send some personnel and I was in this car park. In the back of the shopping center in Geelong and the guy came across. Little did I know the man had one arm. So here I have been in my life where I’ve received a call with a flat tire. And the man that fixed, it was a one-armed man who knew automotive’s back to front and was able to literally get the car up, take the tire off. Unseized the bolts, put it back on, get everything sorted, organize all the paperwork, everything with a single arm.

And he did it. Magically, in fact, this man is famous inside of the area. I don’t know his name exactly, but if you’re in Geelong and you call RACV, you could be likely helped with their roadside assistance situation with this man. But then also I’ll call him John from American express who was able to battle through that tough and challenging situation. And was able to deliver incredible service with a starter. In what is essentially. Phone roll. What does that tell you?

It tells you that they are people who make excuses and go no there. And then there are people who battle with the adversity and they overcome their excuses. And they get the job done. And what camp are you in? I was looking into this online and I was looking, where does the word excuse come from? And believe it or not, the word excuse is a Latin word.

X meaning “out” causa (“a charge”) , and then the Latin word “excūsāre” is to free from blame and which was then adopted in the old French word of excūsō. There, which then became excuse in the times of English and it’s really funny to be free of blame.

And, often with these peculiar insidious forces of excuse. What we are trying to do here is get a way from blame. Not only making excuses to avoid blame. So for instance, we don’t wish we’ve been given a job. Something went wrong. We point the finger and we blame others and we make any, we create an alibi or an excuse.

But what’s often at the very bottom of these things, these insidious forces called excuses is that, excuses are the subconscious defense mechanisms that prevent individuals from facing their fears and stepping out of their comfort sirens. And once you understand that, You will have these knee jerk thoughts or these knee-jerk ideas you will be. And once you start to look inwards and identify that you’re saying certain things to yourself that only smoke. Like maybe these aren’t so true. Maybe these aren’t so real. And when you look at your big goals and you ask yourself, why haven’t I achieved this right now? And you write down all the reasons, all your excuses, why you haven’t reached your goals. How many of these. 100% real.

And more often than not excuses are made because we cannot deal with the fear, but we also can not deal with how people will perceive us to be going through that beginner stage.

Once again, when you, when someone asks you to go do something adventurous that you don’t feel you’re comfortable with doing. What, what will happen? Just say for instance, I don’t like skiing because I’m not very good at it. And if my friends asked me to go up to the slopes, Mount Buller and I was “Hey Dean, and want to go skiing this weekend, it’s no, man, it’s cold.

I don’t want to hurt my knees and all that sort of stuff. There are bullshit excuses. Purely because of the fact that I don’t want to look like the worst skier on the slope, I could be. Acknowledging it’s like, Hey, it might hurt my knees. I might get cold. I don’t really have all the right equipment.

These are all excuses, but I’m going to give it a go anyway. You could try that you could push yourself moving forward. And what if you didn’t, what if you actually looked at your excuses? Blasted through them. How different would your life look?

It’s just so magnificent when you can push through your, all the bullshit that you’re telling yourself. And see what your life truly looks like. It’s really funny in my own business. I used to think that I was the only way that could. Things could be done, but when I started to hire smarter people than me, I started leaning back and letting the smart people take care of problems that I once handled.

And guess what? I let guard, I became better. I had to find a new challenge purely because the fact that I wasn’t enabling great people below me in my business to great work. And that enables the entire business to scale effectively. It’s really powerful. Once you can start looking into these excuses.

Because excuses prevent us reaching our goals.

What were you set on planet earth to do? When you were born was too. When you were born, like you knew no excuses. When you were born, you knew nothing but growth. When you’re a little baby, you start out as an embryo, then you become a bigger baby and then you become a child and then you become an adolescent and then you become a teenager. or youth or whatever. And then you become a full-blown adult. Like you have always been growing and you’ve always been aspiring and you’ve always been achieving it’s society. That’s taught you how to make excuses. And it’s your own self-awareness to recognize that these excuses are holding you back.

For instance, if you thought, oh, I’ll never be able to make it to America and you’d be like, why would you never be able to make it to America?

You live in Australia, you can get on a plane. Oh, I’m scared of airplane security. It’s like, why are you scared of airplanes, security? Go deep into it. And a lot of the time it’s this emotional handbrake that you have on yourself which realistically just needs to get blasted through or pushed through. Through the use of whether you go see a psychologist or a life coach, or you have a conversation with a strong friend who will support you. Regardless of how things are going. Because here’s the crazy thing.

If you keep on making excuses. You’re not going to grow.

And if you keep making these excuses and you’re not growing, guess what’s going to happen your business isn’t going to grow, your relationships isn’t going to grow, your finances aren’t going to grow. Everything is not going to happen and your life will start to become not from a growth phase, but it will start to enter a decay phase. And you simply do not want this in your life.

So now that we’ve gone through the psychology behind excuses. What will this have on your growth and your development? Let’s come up with some strategies to overcome excuses and to take action.

So, the first thing you need to do in order to overcome your excuses is to develop some practical steps to identify and challenge your own excuses. One of the easiest ways to do this is by setting some well, having a look at your goals, first things first don’t even second, have a look at the goals that are in front of you that are existing there.

For instance, just say you want to make $150,000 this year which is a noble goal for so many of you and I damn well respect every single one of you I’ve been there. I’ve done that. I know how tough that can be. Now. When you try to go about generating your first hundred $50,000, you’re gonna make a lot of excuses.

I don’t have the network. I don’t have that, this, I don’t have that. I don’t have this. But I bet that. I don’t have the money. Great. Now you have those excuses. Now then go about looking at every single one of them. And ask why this is true.

Go through those exercises, go through all those excuses, write down why you think these might be true. And then, on the other side of that ledger asked, why could this be false? And then lament on that really invest some time and energy to developing what could be false.

Because you want to focus on what you can do and not so much what you can’t do. And that’s when it always helps to have some form of accountability partner. In your corner. See, one of the best accountability partners you’ll have in your life in the married men in the room will understand that is having a wife in your life. Like my wife has been the most incredible accountability partner I have ever seen, and she will call me out on my shit.

Every single day. Hannah is phenomenal. And often you need to have someone ruminating around you or living near you or being in that same room as you to see what you’re saying and see what you’re doing. And to essentially be like, Hey, you said you were going to do this. You didn’t do it. Look. It’s happened.

Look at the impact of your of your word not being on it. There is a problem here. You need to fix it. That will change the way you do things it’ll force you to level up because at the end of the day, your excuses are preventing you from leveling up for someone to meet you. Head on. To hold you accountable to hold you to your word. That’s going to change things.

And, more importantly, you need to make the mindset shift where you can do. Not so much, you can’t do. You need to use goals to drive actions, and not your circumstances to prevent them.

So guys. What is your excuse? I want to know what you guys can work on this week to help you. Overcome the internal voice of no, you can’t do it. And I want to see. What you’re going to be putting in place to overcome that because I cannot wait to see it. I cannot wait to see what you guys are going to do, what you’re going to implement, what you’re going to lay down and how you are going to take life by the Scruff of the neck and make greatness happen for you.

Guys, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for tuning into Open Source Growth. My name is Dean. Having an amazing week. Bye bye.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠⁠⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠⁠⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

LinkedIn Ads For SaaS: Everything You Need To Know To Book Demos, Free Trials and Scaling Your MRR

On this episode of the podcast, Dean Denny shares practical insights on maximizing the potential of LinkedIn ads for B2B SaaS businesses. He discusses strategies for demand generation and lead generation campaigns, emphasizing the importance of careful consideration of unit economics. Dean highlights targeting options, campaign setup, and optimization techniques, stressing the value of clear targeting, lead forms, and gated content for effective lead generation. He also emphasizes the significance of tracking conversions using Google tags and the LinkedIn insights tag to enhance campaign effectiveness.


[00:00:04] SaaS marketing podcast by Dean Denny.

[00:03:32] LinkedIn ideal for B2B SaaS platforms.

[00:06:28] LinkedIn ads for B2B sales growth.

[00:09:54] Increase video views, drive traffic, target ICP.

[00:13:40] Build lead magnet, invest in landing page, optimize LinkedIn ads.


Lessons Learned from the Podcast

  1. LinkedIn’s Potential for B2B Growth: Recognize LinkedIn as a potent platform for B2B businesses to acquire quality leads, trials, demos, and recurring revenue due to its professional user base and robust targeting options.

  2. Cost-Effectiveness Alignment: Ensure that your average order value (AOV) or customer acquisition costs (CAC) align with LinkedIn’s higher traffic costs to achieve a reasonable return on investment, especially for businesses employing a sales-led growth approach.

  3. Strategic Objective Differentiation: Understand the distinction between demand generation (building brand awareness and engagement) and lead generation (booking demos and filling the sales pipeline), tailoring campaigns and assets accordingly to meet specific business objectives.

  4. Effective Targeting and Optimization: Utilize LinkedIn’s diverse targeting options based on job titles, industries, company size, etc., and optimize campaigns based on your ideal customer profile (ICP) to maximize results and minimize wasted ad spend.

  5. Continuous Monitoring and Adaptation: Implement proper tracking mechanisms, monitor campaign performance regularly, analyze key metrics, and adjust strategies as needed to optimize results, emphasizing continuous learning and improvement for sustained growth.

This is Open Source Growth, Australia’s number one SaaS marketing podcast hosted by me, Dean Denny, founder and director of Owendenny Digital. Get ready to deep dive into a world of direct response advertising. Unlock the mysteries of digital marketing, master the art of copywriting and drive massive revenue growth with cutting edge customer acquisition strategies, from product led growth to sales led growth. We’ve got it all covered, and that’s not all.

Join us as we sit down with some of the brightest minds in our industries, founders, CMOs who’ve been where you are and have made it to the other side with stories to tell and wisdom to share.

We’re not just about the strategies in the how to’s, we’re here to fuel your drive with a heavy dose of motivation because in the world of SaaS, it’s not about knowing the path. It’s about charging down with all you’ve got. Whether you’re looking to double, triple, or even 10X your SaaS company this year, Open Source Growth is your ticket to the big leagues.

So plug in, turn up the volume, and let’s get your SaaS rocketing to new heights. Because here it’s not just growth. It’s exponential growth served with a side of fun and a sprinkle of the extraordinary.

Welcome to Open Source Growth. Let the adventure begin.

Hey, how are you going? It’s Dean here. Welcome to Open Source Growth.

And in today’s episode, I want to give you the lowdown on running LinkedIn ads for your SaaS business. I want to give you everything that you need to know. To book demos, free trials and to scale your monthly recurring revenue. So if you’re at home, pick up a pen, get your journal or a piece of paper or get ready to tap out some notes on your notepad. Purely because of the fact that I want to give you so much here that you can literally get straight to it and generate leads by the end of this call.

Now, let’s just give a brief overview of LinkedIn and talk about exactly why you would even consider running LinkedIn ads for your SaaS business now? LinkedIn, as we all know is essentially the Facebook for professionals. Every single person who has a job or has some form of business benefits from having a LinkedIn profile.

LinkedIn profiles for the users enable users to share their professional journey. Enables them to prospect for new opportunities whether it be a new jobs or to go about acquiring new customers. If you’re a sales rep and enables you to connect and follow other people’s careers.

There’s a very social element to see like what certain businesses are doing or what certain teams inside of businesses are doing there. It’s a place where, social and societal issues are discussed around the way we do work and so many different things.

LinkedIn has truly evolved over the many years. And, it was only up until, about, I think it was about seven years ago when the LinkedIn ads platform came about. I might even do a quick Google search whilst I’m in this podcast to tell you exactly when LinkedIn ads became a thing. And LinkedIn ads gave businesses who offer mostly business to business services the opportunity to target your ideal customer profiles in many different ways, shapes or forms.

And what LinkedIn has as a platform is quite similar to Facebook in many different ways, but there are some key nuances that you need to know before you get into it. Now, with over 700 million people on LinkedIn, LinkedIn can be a gold mine for your SaaS business to generate those quality leads, trials, demos, and ultimately monthly recurring revenue.

But how do you navigate this vast ocean of potential without getting lost in the sea of complexities? Now if you have a SaaS business, this platform is fantastic.

If it is a B2B platform. So a B2B SaaS platform, a B2B SaaS platform could be something like Monday.com. At a larger level, it could be like canva.com, but it’s not a tool such as Strava, which is like an online athlete tracking tool, which goes directly to the consumer. So if you have a business that is B2B in nature that you sell from business, your business sells to another business to provide a service, to help their business, to run. LinkedIn is something you really need to explore in your business.

The second thing, and this is like any ad platform that we recommend to our clients here at Owendenny is that the unit economics need to make sense now.

From my experience, from what I have seen. LinkedIn traffic costs across the board is generally a lot more expensive than other platforms such as Facebook or TikTok or Google display ads. And because the traffic costs are so high, you need to ensure that your average order value. So your monthly average order value of your SaaS platform can sustain the costs or that, your customer acquisition costs and your customer payback period. To ensure that you’re able to get a good return in a reasonable time, according to your own internal company benchmarks.

If you are running LinkedIn ads and you say your average order value for our customer is. I don’t know, maybe you just, it’s $50 a month. LinkedIn ads is probably not going to be the place that you need to go to, unless you can confirm that people are using your software for 10 or 20 years. You’re running LinkedIn ads to go about acquiring a customer for a 50 or a 50, or even a 20, or even as much as a hundred dollar a month platform, if that’s your average order value.

Not like the peak value or the low value. I would be earning on the side of caution. As to whether we use a LinkedIn ads strategy.

Just to give you some context here, what we often see with LinkedIn ads is that if you are a product led company, and you are expecting users to self-serve and then use the platform and scale up that way. We’ve found that LinkedIn ads are not the perfect way for your SaaS business to grow. In fact, it’s too cost prohibitive. But again, if you have a product led approach, which drives people to spend over 300 to $500 a month with you, LinkedIn ads could be a winner. But at this level, from what we see, LinkedIn is the better platform for those who are optimizing and using a sales led approach where the whole goal of your revenue team is to book demos.

So, if you have a sales led growth approach, so you’ve got a much higher average order value per year. LinkedIn ads is definitely the way to make things happen. So now that we’ve got that out of the way, LinkedIn ads is amazing for B2B businesses who offer a sales led growth approach. To book the demos, to get things to work. What do you need to make this work?

So with LinkedIn ads, what we do find is that there are two or three different ways to approach the cat. You can go down the demand generation approach, or you can take the lead generation approach. With demand generation, there are so many different ways you can skin this cat and there’s nothing wrong with any of them. But when you do use the demand generation approach, you just need to be very careful about how you go about optimizing for your ads.

Now with LinkedIn, there’s amazing things that you can do when it comes to your demand generation play. You can upload audiences from email lists, you can then create, look like audiences, which essentially duplicates and re- creates additional prospects based on the list that you upload. You can target via companies you can target via third-party data.

There’s other means of targeting. You can also target people by their profession or where they live, or how old are they? What level of management they are in what companies they belong to. There is so many different ways you can go about targeting there’s different optimization objectives as well with LinkedIn, you can build brand awareness.

You can generate website visits, you can do engagement ads, video views, lead generation website conversion campaigns as job application campaigns as well. There’s just so much stuff here. So before I get like way too excited and confused the living daylights out of you on this podcast today, I want to talk quickly about if you’re going down the demand generation approach with demand generation, you’re building brand awareness a lot of the time, but you’re also building engagement on your LinkedIn.

Now. You generally, when you run a demand generation campaign, you’re building an obscene amount of awareness, and you’re trying to build an obscene amount of engagement around the problem that you serve. So when it comes to your demand generation campaigns being wildly successful to build out those high intent revenue opportunities, we need to increase the video views of your organic content that performs well. We need to create engagement on that organic content that performs well, and we need to drive traffic to your website to expand upon the problems here. Now as a rule of thumb that sits within the consideration objectives within LinkedIn.

And if you’re going to go about running and creating copy and creating creatives for that, go for it right now. And then with demand generation, brand awareness, even though it’s not like a direct, let’s go about booking calendar things right here. Right now you do need to consider this now with a demand generation campaign, because it’s multifaceted.

You also need to consider a hurricane. How are we going to capture these leads? And by setting up either a lead generation campaign or website conversions campaign, you can go about capturing those leads. Now. When you want to use. I’ve say a lead generation lead form like on Facebook, LinkedIn has this offer and you can go about utilizing this within the lead generation section of LinkedIn.

You can set these campaigns up beautifully. I can get moving right away and they can really go about generating some amazing results for you. Using LinkedIn ads, you could also send people to your own landing pages using website, conversion campaigns, and then tracking them based on the thank you page.

So that works really well. So again, demand generation you use essentially all of the different objective style campaigns, and you can do all the different types of optimization here. As well. Now again, when it comes to then going about targeting your ICP, you need to be clear cut with who you target.

Do you know the demographics? Do you know their psychographics? And then do you have. Email lists or look like audiences that you can build. And ensure that you can get them straight in there. To ensure that you’re targeting your right people. Like the one thing that LinkedIn has going forward and I have to give it, its props is that you can really go about targeting via job title and you can target people in particular industries.

And that’s really beneficial. Especially if you are looking to go about working with a particular avatar or something like that. So that’s why LinkedIn is really powerful. In terms of the assets that you need to pull off a demand generation campaign, that’s going to be beyond the scope of this one podcast. So before we divert into the lead generation campaign, what you do need, what you don’t need, et cetera, et cetera.

If you want any more information on demand generation, feel free to hit me up. My email is dean.denny@owendenny.com . We can set up a call and go through the ins and outs of demand gen together. But now with thinking of lead generation, what would we do differently? So if you are looking to go about booking demos and leads, to essentially fill your pipeline full. So your sales teams can get right in there. LinkedIn is an absolute, no brainer for those in the B2B environments, like marketing agencies. Yes, companies, whatever. Now. What campaigns do you roll out?

First things first. If you haven’t got the landing pages rollout, a lead generation campaign, and just get some lead forms going to ensure that you can validate your concept and your idea. When it comes to building out a lead generation campaign LinkedIn does really well with gated content.

So if you are looking at building a lead magnet or an e-book or a case study, or a free report or whatever to build out your email list. Get into it with a lead form approach and get the thing tested that way. So then you can validate which of your lead magnet ideas are actually going to do, go about building out your database. Once you identify what is actually working there. Then go invest the money into creating a proper landing page. With all the things that you need on that landing page, all the bells and whistles.

So you can then give it a more cohesive customer experience. We’ll increase the quality of your leads and everything will be much better for you. So again, that’s what I would consider doing right away. If I was going to go about building out a campaign now, in terms of actually booking. The those demo calls and things like that two approaches capture the phone number, so you can get an then use your SDR or your sales development representative. To pick up the phone and close the deal. But if you are sending them to a particular landing page, you can then go about securing them into a demo call. On the upsell page, it’s a very waterfall Ryan Deiss, digital marketer. King Kong funnel.

You know what I’m saying? If you do need some additional assistance with this, again, hit me up dean.denny@owendenny.com. and we’ll take care of itself on that with us. So again, that’s there, the assets you need in order to make things work.

Now, when it comes to getting your LinkedIn ads to work. When it comes to writing these ads, just focus on the pain points. Don’t go too much. Into the super long form ads. People are on LinkedIn. They’re in a hurry. They’re flicking through it. They’re really not there to spend time, relax and engage. I love long form ads. It pains me to go about writing short form ads for my own personal LinkedIn campaigns. But that’s generally what I would. Articulate here.

If you are a company, just get straight to the point. And, keep the content short. The next thing that I would be recommending you do with these creatives as well, is that keep them short again, 30 seconds to a minute. For the videos use very, very clear graphics, which can really demonstrate the either before or after, or, demonstrate what the promised land looks like. In terms of running these campaigns and managing these campaigns ensure that before you hit the button, that you have very realistic customer acquisition costs and average order values. All that stuff.

None of that beforehand. When we optimize LinkedIn campaigns, we don’t really like to do more than two to five optimizations a week. So please don’t go about fiddling with your campaigns, especially when they just kick off. A lot of the LinkedIn reps that we work with recommend that you don’t actually touch things from the first two, even three weeks of running a campaign. Again, we think that’s a little bit haphazard. But again, we like to ensure that we don’t over optimize things when things kick off, because LinkedIn does take a while to get going. In terms of the conversions and stuff that you need.

You do need to go about implementing your LinkedIn conversion so they will need to be a full Google tag manager tracking, set up to make this work effectively. And, the other thing you’ll need to do apart from tracking your conversions individually is implementing the LinkedIn insights tag. Now, this is its own unique superpower.

It’s super, it’s a little data warehouse of all the LinkedIn people who hit your website. And essentially, if you’ve got the LinkedIn insights tag, you can then unpack who is actually hitting your website, where are they coming from? What sort of industry are they in, et cetera, et cetera, it’s really going to make a massive difference to you and the intelligence that you. Acquire to ensure that things are phenomenal.

When it comes to getting things moving again inside of your businesses. Guys, I think that’s all I need to really tell you today. Best of luck with running LinkedIn ads. And if you do need assistance running your LinkedIn ads, feel free to hit me up dean.denny@owendenny.com And we can go through what you’re doing inside of your business to see how we can go about scaling up your demos, your free trials and scaling your MRR.

So let me know if we can help you out and I hope you enjoy today. Talk soon!


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠⁠⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠⁠⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

The 1-3-1 Rule For Leading Marketing Teams At Scale

On this episode of the podcast hosted by Dean Denny, discover the powerful ‘one three one rule’ for leading marketing teams. Learn how this rule can streamline meetings, empower team members, and drive business growth. Find out how to maximize team productivity and efficiency in marketing leadership roles. Explore strategies for clear problem-solving and decision-making processes to accelerate progress and minimize time-consuming discussions.


[00:02:25] Leverage team for successful marketing campaigns.

[00:03:52] Marketing meetings can spiral out of control, but implementing the 1-3-1 rule can help streamline discussions and decision-making.

[00:05:35] One three one rule for problem-solving.

[00:07:02] Implement 1-3-1 rule . Empower, leverage, move faster, get most out of people.


Lessons Learned from the Podcast

Key Components of the 1:3:1 Rule

1. Define the Problem (The One): When a team member presents a problem or challenge, the first step is to clearly define the specific issue at hand. It’s crucial to focus on identifying the core problem rather than getting sidetracked by multiple issues.

2. Develop Three Solutions (The Three): Once the problem is defined, the team member is tasked with generating three potential solutions. This encourages creativity and critical thinking, providing multiple options to address the identified problem.

3. Recommend the Best Solution (The One): Finally, the team member selects and recommends the most suitable solution from the three options presented. They must justify their choice, providing rationale and insights behind their decision.

This is Open Source Growth, Australia’s number one SaaS marketing podcast hosted by me, Dean Denny, founder and director of Owendenny Digital. Get ready to deep dive into a world of direct response advertising. Unlock the mysteries of digital marketing, master the art of copywriting and drive massive revenue growth with cutting edge customer acquisition strategies, from product led growth to sales led growth. We’ve got it all covered, and that’s not all.

Join us as we sit down with some of the brightest minds in our industries, founders, CMOs who’ve been where you are and have made it to the other side with stories to tell and wisdom to share.

We’re not just about the strategies in the how to’s, we’re here to fuel your drive with a heavy dose of motivation because in the world of SaaS, it’s not about knowing the path. It’s about charging down with all you’ve got. Whether you’re looking to double, triple, or even 10X your SaaS company this year, Open Source Growth is your ticket to the big leagues.

So plug in, turn up the volume, and let’s get your SaaS rocketing to new heights. Because here it’s not just growth. It’s exponential growth served with a side of fun and a sprinkle of the extraordinary.

Welcome to Open Source Growth. Let the adventure begin.

Hey. How you going? It’s Dean here. Welcome to Open Source Growth. And in today’s episode, I wanna go through the 1-3-1 rule with you when it comes to leading marketing teams.

Now the 1-3-1 rule is classic rule that you can go about implementing inside of your one on one and your one to many conversations that you have with your marketing team.

It doesn’t matter whether you’re talk, but you’re talking with your media buyers or your content creators or your direct marketers or your email marketing coordinators. This strategy works so so well as a CMO or a Head of Growth or a Chief Growth Officer or whatever your marketing management title may be to ensure that you get the most out of your team members.

See, when you hire people and you hire team members, you wanna ensure that you are getting the best bang for a buck out of them. You’re investing your company’s hard-earned energy time, resources, and money into making sure that you can pat out an excellent marketing team with incredible people on the inside so that we can do bigger and better customer acquisition campaigns or bigger and better brand awareness campaigns. So when you have brilliant people underneath you, you can do these amazing leveraged, full blown campaigns.

Now there is a downside to this when you have more people and that involves more conversations. When you’re the Chief Marketing Officer or Marketing Manager or the Head of Marketing or the Chief Growth Officer. So let’s just go with you’re in marketing leadership. Let’s just use that for today’s episode because the more people there are, the more personalities there are, the more likelihood that you’ll have that there will be a difference of opinion between one member of the marketing team and another. There will be conflict.

There’ll be all sorts of junk that you need to go about resolving as the marketing leader to ensure that everyone is matching forth towards the north star of your business. And, obviously, every business has their own north star objective. I’m not going to tell you exactly what yours should be today, I can hint, grow your business. It’ll do the best thing for you in your life. It’ll change everything for you. Anyway, that’s is my personal opinion.

But, what can happen when you’ve got so many people underneath you is that a marketing meeting, which is normally 30 to 45 minutes can turn either to an hour or a two and a half hour discussion because you go down a rabbit hole. You open a can of worms. Everyone wants to have their opinion. And everyone’s got an idea and not only will they have one idea, they may have three ideas and they then want to cross-pollinate that with each other.

And it can turn into a freaking nightmare. Everyone forgets about the agenda that you set for the meeting. Then luckily you’ve got those AI note takers, so everything’s captured, but it can be a real shemozzle. I would argue it can be a true shit show.

Now, you’re probably thinking how can I get around this and how do I get myself? How do I get myself in a position where I can get away from having these long-winded technical conversations. How can I get my team to package everything so we can make the best decisions to move forward faster?

To move forward with greater precision and to ensure that half-baked ideas are simply not just like spat out at a meeting and we go on a gigantic merry-go-round. And what we’ve implemented is from a book called Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell.

And the main premise of the book is don’t hire for skills, hire to buy back your time as the founder of the business or the marketing leader of the business to ensure that you can play a more leveraged game. And build a fantastic business. We’re implementing in head to toe inside of our agency, and it’s doing massive things for us, but where this 1-3-1 rule comes into its own is truly in marketing meetings with your team members.

Now it doesn’t necessarily have to be one to many, but it can also be a one to one. And I like to use this approach in the one to one. So let me just go through it. Here’s the 1-3-1 rule. The first thing you do when you’re talking with a team member and they provide you with a problem or a scenario, which they need to overcome. You gotta go.

The first thing you do is the number one. Just say you’re talking to John. John, I need you to clearly define the problem we are trying to solve. Not three problems, not seven problems. The one problem. So then you get John to go about defining what that problem is specifically. The second thing you asked, John is John I need three solutions for this. I need you to develop three solutions for this problem. What would you, what are the three solutions you would come up with? What are my three options?

And then get John goes out. Comes up with these three options.

And then finally.

The one. John. Which solution do you recommend and why?

Guess what happens when you actually deliver this? John goes to his own drawing board. John picks up a pen. He picks up his laptop keyboard. You’re right. He thinks it through. John then brings it back. Comes to you, you see his rationale in clear sight on paper. And you can make a decision to move things forward that saves you having to resolve your situations.

Not only does the 1-3-1 rule enable you to get away. From having to do the thinking for him, it enables you to step into your power as a marketing leader, to do the higher leverage activities and enables you to move faster. It enables you to get the most out of your people. And it enables all these incredible things for your organization. People feel happier because they’re dictating the way things are moving in the business. They feel like you’ve got genuine buy-in with their view and how they see the world. And it’s just incredible.

When you start to get this to work at scale, you can use this in a one-to-many environment. You can use it in a one-on-one setting. I think a one-on-one setting is where it’s really good, and you can use it in all areas of your business. So if you liked this episode today, I really do encourage you to subscribe. I do encourage you to implement the 1-3-1 rule inside of your business.

And I always, always encourage you to have the most remarkable day.

I’ll talk to you soon. Bye bye.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠⁠⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠⁠⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

Your Business Needs a Podcast. Here’s why…

On this episode of Open Source Growth, Dean Denny discuss the benefits of podcasting for SaaS companies. He highlights how podcasting can help build a strong brand and engage with the audience. He also provides insights on setting up a podcast, including equipment recommendations and publishing platforms. The host suggests talking about valuable topics like software marketing and lead generation to attract customers. He emphasize the importance of adding personal touches and sharing personal experiences to create a unique brand. Stay tuned for future episodes on audience engagement, storytelling frameworks, guest interviews, and metrics for measuring success.


[00:00:07] Podcasting is an effective tool for SaaS companies.

[00:01:53] Podcasting is effective for marketing.

[00:03:30] Podcasts can help build a likable brand.

[00:06:50] Calculate podcast ROI with long-term commitment.

[00:11:58] Informed marketing agency talks about everything.

[00:13:58] “Add personality, don’t overthink, just do.”

[00:15:30] Focus on the next step, overcome obstacles.

Lessons Learned

Here are the top 5 lessons learned from the podcast:

Lesson 1: Invest in Resources: Allocate resources, both financial and human, to ensure the quality and consistency of your podcast. Invest in basic equipment like microphones and editing software.

Lesson 2: Content Strategy: Develop a content strategy that resonates with your audience’s interests and pain points. Share valuable insights and experiences relevant to your industry. Infuse your personality into the content to humanize your brand.

Lesson 3: Long-Term Perspective: Understand that podcasting is a long-term endeavor that requires consistent effort and dedication. Focus on providing value to your audience over time, rather than expecting immediate results.

Lesson 4: Brand Building: Use podcasting as a tool to build a brand that goes beyond your product or service offerings. Cultivate a likeable, relatable brand persona that resonates with your target audience. Establish trust and credibility through consistent and authentic communication.

Lesson 5: Measure Success Holistically: While ROI is important, don’t solely focus on immediate financial returns. Consider other metrics such as audience engagement, brand awareness, and community building as indicators of success.

Welcome to Open Source Growth, and you’re here with Dean, founder and director of Owendenny Digital, Australia’s number one SaaS marketing agency. In today’s episode, I want to go through the power of podcasting. Why it’s an effective tool for your SaaS company? How your podcasts can help you in building a powerhouse SaaS brand.

We’ll talk about some of our own success stories from this year on our own podcast and why it worked for us, and how to properly analyze the ROI of your podcast. Then in the second half of this podcast, we want to talk about how you would go about setting up your software companies very own podcast. What equipment do you need to get started? What sort of content strategy do you need to consider, and what should you talk about?  We’ll even discuss what platforms you want to run and launch your podcast on, and tips for recording and editing your first episodes. We’ll talk in a future episode about how to grow your audience, and how to promote your podcast. But to begin with, let’s just talk about why you need to do it.

See in 2024, Our agency, Owendenny, we decided to launch a podcast. And we were really, hesitant to do so. I remember dabbling with Anchor FM many years ago when it came to this whole concept of micro podcasting, And since having a crack at that in say like 2018 and 2019. I started to recognize it’s time to take things seriously.

What I’ve found is that by doing things in half measure, your entire life,  unfortunately, everything becomes half done. And half-done bridges don’t get you anywhere in life. So we thought, you know what? Let’s actually put some money into some resources behind our podcast this year. So, then what did we actually do?

Our agency, we bought this microphone. We found great editing software,  like Descript. We used our webcam, or we recorded without a webcam because we simply didn’t have either the lighting, the confidence, or the expertise to do things well. That’s how we got started in our podcast. And throughout this year, and this journey, it has been really instrumental for our agency when it comes to becoming that authority beacon in software marketing.

It enabled us to nurture our sales leads without us having to speak to them or our marketing-qualified leads. It enabled us to reach out to our, this more via email marketing and enabled us to create amazing short-form content to support all of our demand generation efforts, whether it be on LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram or whatever. So it really opened up a massive potential for us in our business and we can only emphasize the same things for you in your software company.

Now. Why is it so effective? Why is it so powerful?

Let’s look into like how we consume content nowadays. We’ve  read content on blogs. We watch visuals and short-form videos on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and then sometimes we put on YouTube, we crack open a beer and we sit on the couch and we have a look at everything. But then when we’re in the car, we’d like to listen to things, and as humans, we’re more isolated than ever before. And we really want to be able to consume that longer form content instead of just belting at your favorite tracks in the car. And that’s why it’s so effective that you have that podcast, which can then be repurposed in many different ways.

And what’s really interesting here is that if your software company say offers a CRM solution, there are many other CRM solutions on the market. And what can be the differentiating factor other than the features and benefits in the end of the day. Is whether or not they like the brand and what your business stands for.  So podcasts can just do more than create heaps of short-form content and how you can go about clipping that and then repurposing it across your entire content distribution ecosystem.

But it can help you build a brand which is likeable, which is fun, which is fresh, which is vibrant. And it’s everything your customer buys into. Remember, apart from  benefits and features, humans want three things they want. A healthy relationship. They want health and they also want financial abundance.

But other than that, there’s this other thing that is at play and we’re all selling identity at the end of the day.  For instance, if you’re watching this podcast on say YouTube or on Spotify. If I look like a slob and I’m not presented well, and you’re listening to what I’m saying, and you’re like, Hey, I don’t agree with this guy. I don’t wish to be this human being some consciously at the end of the day, you’re going to be like, Hey, I can’t listen to you anymore. This isn’t for me. This brand’s not for me. And even though we may offer the best marketing agency solution for a software company like yours, you may not want to be involved with us. And that’s, what’s really crucial here that it can enable you to build out a brand, which is bigger than yourself.

And if you’re thinking about really expanding your software company and building out a quote-unquote brand podcast is one of the best places to start. It’s really funny. This year we’ve acquired clients simply through our podcast. We’ve had traffic from all over the world. We’ve attracted four blistered entrepreneurs, simply through the storytelling narrative our podcast and it’s, changed the way we think about it. So it’s quite, it’s one of those things where if you commit to it and you optimize well with your podcast, you can really start to build out a loyal following of great customers or great prospects, even who may even consider buying with you, but just, you can’t think of it like a direct response activity. See as a direct response advertiser, we are impatient a lot of the time in the sense that we’re expecting a return on investment. In say one month, two months or three months. What the podcast has forced us to do.

And this has been that opportunity. At Owendenny. To expand and become bigger and better than we’ve ever been before.  It’s enabled us to focus on. Okay, let’s do this for the long run, and let’s play an infinite game. Where we do this because it’s the right thing to do. And that the community needs to hear our voice. And not to participate in the noise. But to participate in the growth of the software industry. And that’s the way we look at it.

So when it comes down to analyzing the ROI  of your campaign. You could do it in a very brutal means. You could calculate the number of times. Now the number of hours spent recording the number of hours spent strategizing the number of hours entertaining. You are basically aggregating that total pool of resources, and then looking at that as your marketing costs, and then you could consider the cost of distribution, applicate amplification of your.  Of your podcast, whether it be on social media or SEO, or if you’re doing podcasts notes or whatever. And then you could then look at the total amount of revenue generated from your podcast. And then basically get a rough ROI on that.

My suggestion to you though. If you’re planning to go down this route. My recommendation is very simple. And it’s this don’t look at this with a three to six month.  Time step. You need to look at this with a long-term view. And show up every single week or every single month.  But the ROI based on those numbers for us in our first year of semi-committing to this.  Has been astronomical for our business. Now. When it comes to actually setting up a podcast, you’d be really shocked with what you need.

Today’s podcast. Believe it or not has been done on a $30 microphone. I picked up from Amazon. And the quality of this microphone is unfreaking believable. But we’ve enhanced this podcast whole lot more than you could ever believe.  You know what we’re using as well. We’re using my old iPhone 12 as the video recording system, and we’re using the connectivity feature of the iPhone to connect with my Macbook Pro. And then recording both of these tracks at the same time using Descript.

And that’s how literally we have started our podcast and the quality as you can see today is pretty damn good. Like we don’t have to go about investing in a, say like a $2,000 webcam or,   super-duper broadcasting microphone from Shure.  You don’t really need that much to get started.

In fact, you could even take it to a whole new level and just use your latest version iPhone.  And not even use this microphone, but just use the AI features, which are now found inside of descript. Believe it or not to enable what they call studio noise or studio voice. And then optimizing with the AI feature.

So the eye contact is made throughout the entire podcast. It’s actually amazing for you when it comes to doing everything for you. We are huge advocates here at Owendenny for using Descript because it just does so many amazing things, which your SaaS company and your editing team cannot live without. And I can assure you that.

Now, what about publishing your podcast? Now we use a couple of different apps here and I want to really give you some amazing insights into what we use for editing.  We used Descript and that’s what adds all the captions. That’s what does the show Nards that’s what turns this into a blog post.

And we are really hard there, but then we’ll use a second app called Listener.fm to develop amazing show notes. Headlines.

Everything that we need to ensure that these podcasts look really, good. In the eyes of Spotify, because one of the key areas we grow our podcast is by having STR-optimized show notes for each of the platforms. So we can attract a new audience every week based on the titles and the contents of our show. Notes or. The description of the podcast episode, and that makes massive, difference. Oh just have my dog visit me.

How cool.  I’m going to ask you to say hello there.  You can see or hear you guys, if you’re watching the video, her name is Zoe. She’s a poodle. She’s really, really beautiful. Um, You can see a little head here.

She just said, alert everybody.

So, yeah, like that’s what I would be looking into using to optimize your show notes. So then that headache of, when you say outsource this to a video editor, that they can just get the show notes done for you right away. Um, That’s really, really simple. So use Descript for editing.  Listener.FM for your show notes.

And then for publications we use the Spotify podcast feature. I think it’s called podcasting for Spotify. Um, Again, just check the show notes. That’ll all be resolved there. And then um, to go about distributing and syndicating this content across all the different platforms, from my understanding, it publishes these podcasts on like six to seven different platforms in one go. And it’s freaking amazing. Now.

Once you’ve syndicated and you’ve published stuff. You probably gonna ask me like, whoa, what the.  Well, You’ve shown me how to do it, why it’s important, but like, what do I actually talk about on my podcast? Well, you know, It’s really interesting.  We just talk about our lives at Owendenny Digital, but we do it in an informed way.

See. Marketing and sales is a way of life to us at our marketing agency. Like we, we, we live and breathe it. See, we see marketing and sales tactics take place in the day-to-day. Through our interactions with people at our cafes. Through interactions that I have with my dog, believe it or not, that same dog runs split tests on me with different toys.

She does offer testing and she does split testing. Um, And she does optimization strategies to get my attention. Like she’s the best marketer in the household, our little poodle and she’s probably the best salesperson. In our household too, when you think of it that way. So. When it comes to like what you talk about.  Obviously, you need to talk about what your customers value.

For instance, we’re a software marketing.  Agencies. What do we talk about? We talk about software marketing, that’s direct response advertising. You know how to make the most of your lead generation efforts. How to explore Facebook, LinkedIn, Google ads, YouTube ads. That’s what we’re going to be talking about. What do you need to do on a landing page to get the best? Performance. On your signup pages on your software company. What does your customer segmentation need to look like in order to achieve a flawless go-to-market strategy? What sort of things do you need to consider when working with marketing teams and sales teams and aligning them to achieve revenue goals?

Like, there are a lot of things you can talk about. In our world to add massive value to the software founders and whoever is listening to this podcast today. So when you think about it, there’s so many. Massive options for you when it comes to what you should talk about. If you know your customer’s pain points, their desires, what keeps them up at night, what they really want, what do they struggle with?

What are their daily tasks? What are their goals? What are their massive dreams and aspirations? You’ve gotta be completely fine.  Because that’s what you need to talk about, but then here’s the X factor that you need. You need to add your arm damn personality in there too.  Like I talk about my day-to-day.

I talk about the fact that I’ve quit caffeine.  I talk about the facts. That I’m changing my morning. I’m essentially biohacking my system. I’ve got an episode coming up soon. I’m going to do it with my wife. Hannah. And we’re going to be talking about how I haven’t for the first time in my entire existence. I’m 33 years of age. I didn’t get sick this year.  And that’s a massive win. And I want to really share with you the process that I went through to go through that. But like, you need to add your own personality to it. Don’t just make it about your marketing, make it about things that mean a lot to you.

Because again, that adds to the brand that you’re trying to build.


Word of advice. Just make sure that you pick a quiet room in your house. You don’t need perfect lighting. You can do a lot of that post-pride in Descript but have some relatively decent lighting. If you can afford a light ring, we’ve bought one. It’s just down there. We’re not even using it for this episode, but that was like $30 at the nearest office works or like a Home Depot or Kmart, right?

Like, you do not need expensive stuff to make your first podcast a massive success, but all you need to do is just get off your button. Do it. Like it’s a real.  It’s a really crazy thing. And.  The more I get into entrepreneurship and the more I get into marketing and the more I get into pushing myself through this ongoing personal development program, the more I’m starting to realize is that the bigger we make the obstacle in our head, the more paralyzed we become. And often, and this is one of my personal floors, which I have worked a very, very long time this year.  In overcoming, is that the more I give any gravity to a goal, the less likely it comes to its fulfillment. Whereas, what you need to do is just simply focus on the next step and just plot the next step plot, the next step plot, the next step.

I just work towards it and just do the damn thing.  Because as soon as you start to do the damn thing, that illusion of like the goal,  which is paralyzing, you start to simply fade  away.  And that’s what you need to do when it comes to your podcast. Or any of your other marketing or sales efforts for that matter?  And. Then my tips.  For today in a future episode, I’m going to talk to you about how we’ve engaged our audience and how we’ve grown our podcast, especially getting those first thousand views.

It’s really, really, really challenging to do that, especially if you’re not really investing in paid traffic and you just need to rely on the small organic audience. We’ll talk about that in our next episode, how we’ve used like storytelling frameworks um, you know, we want to also talk about how we’ve incorporated guest interviews and collaborations. And the metrics that we use to measure the success and impact of your episodes in your podcast in general. So guys, if you liked this episode, please do subscribe to the podcast on the platform that you are listening to.

We do endeavor to release at least two to three of these every single month to help you and your software company achieve your T two D three goals. That’s it for me. If you’ve got any further questions, feel free to hit me up via email. You can find my email in the job notes. And we’ll talk to you very, very soon.

I can’t wait to speak with you. On our next episode. Peace.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠⁠⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠⁠⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

How To Build An Elite B2B SaaS Growth Marketing Team

On this episode of Open Source Growth, Dean Denny, founder and director of Australia’s top-ranked SaaS marketing agency Owen Denny Digital, discusses the importance of building an effective B2B SaaS growth marketing team. He recommends hiring a high-quality generalist, outsourcing specialist help, and hiring agencies for media buying, strategy, and SEO. He also suggests hiring from disadvantaged communities and bringing in a CMO to oversee the whole team.


[00:01:47] Building B2B SaaS team: step-by-step instructions.

[00:03:55] Marketing team part of revenue team.

[00:06:14] Enable customers to self-serve, self-submit, revenue-driven.

[00:08:27] Hire quality generalist, train, manage, align goals.

[00:18:56] Outsource copy, hire copywriter, video editor.

[00:21:23] Create content team, CMO, report up, philosophical choices.

[00:23:19] Hire agency help for growth.

Top 5 Lessons Learned from the Podcast

Lesson 1: Recognize the marketing team as part of the greater revenue team.

Align marketing efforts with sales to ensure the generation of revenue is the ultimate goal. Understand the company’s vision and revenue targets, and ensure the marketing team shares this focus.

Lesson 2: Prioritize hiring a general marketing assistant before outsourcing to agencies.

In the early stages, a versatile marketing assistant can handle various tasks, allowing the founder to focus on strategic direction. When ready to expand, consider outsourcing specific tasks to agencies based on needs.

Lesson 3: Hire an in-house copywriter early in the growth stages.

Having a consistent tone of voice across all platforms is crucial for effective communication. An in-house copywriter can maintain brand consistency and negotiate better rates with agencies while aligning content with overall marketing goals.

Lesson 4: As the team grows, bring in-house specialists like video editors.

Building an internal content creation team with specialists like video editors ensures a steady flow of high-quality content. Consider hiring from disadvantaged communities for skilled yet cost-effective talent.

Lesson 5: Introduce a Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) to oversee the entire marketing operation.

A CMO becomes essential as the team expands, managing activations, networking events, and reporting frameworks. This strategic leadership ensures efficient coordination among team members and helps the business scale effectively.

Hey. How are you going? It’s Dean here and welcome to open source growth. The #1 destination for SaaS founders, CMOs, and more to help you scale your B2B SaaS product in record time with the latest and greatest direct response advertising, demand generation and so, so, so much more. Here is a true exchange of ideas that can truly help you grow your business. And in today’s episode, I want to talk to you about how to build an elite B2B SaaS growth marketing team.

Now. If you’re wondering like, yes, we may not have a B2B SaaS product in our business. Um, We may just be a marketing agency, but what’s really fascinating about this conversation today is that, by definition, a marketing agency is essentially a marketing team. That works for you. So with my experience in growing this business to beyond eight high performing non junior team members. I do know a little bit about what a B2B SaaS needs in order to grow their business and grow a team, which is self-fulfilling. Essentially. Since. Your company. Then it provides them with engagement on your posts. It extends leads into your funnels that captures the demand. It does lead generation and it helps. Sales and marketing to work as one compelling unit together.

Now. I’m not sure how today’s podcasts going to unfold, but what I can say is this, we’re going to talk about. What. You must go in with, so the mindset. Around building this team and the mindset and you must then propagate. Through out the marketing team you build will also go into the stages of. Your business and where you’re at inside of your B2B SaaS company, you may just be a. Lone Wolf during it all. At this stage and we’ll show you through today’s podcast. How to go from lone Wolf, literally doing everything from investor relations, to building products, to running the landing pages, et cetera, et cetera. What to do, how do outsource it, what to bring in house blahdy, blahdy, blah. And we’ll go all the way from that. Up to that medium sized business or know where a real team is then starting to be required and even touch on what an agency. Is, and when you need it. But more importantly, I really want to get to the heart of the matter and provide you with some step-by-step. Instructions in regards to the team members you need to hire.

In real time. Now as part of this growth marketing team, we’re only going to be focusing on the digital today. So when it comes to activations, hiring your business development manager, Uh, hiring anything in regards to a customer success manager, et cetera, et cetera, that is old. I would say more in that customer service and sales facing capacities. We’re really only going to be focusing on the growth marketing. Member. Of the team. So. Please understand that this is our wheel house, and we’re going to just reveal to you. How you go about building this team out in real time. So let’s start off with what I think is a true misnomer. Of. Building out a marketing team is so recognize this team as a part of the greater revenue team.

Now, if you’re building a marketing team out that just does marketing over indexes on the KPIs, which had. Attributed to marketing team performance, whether it be number of leads, generated. Number of sales calls booked. Um, or you number of impressions, number of clicks, the traffic, et cetera, et cetera. If the metrics that have been established. If they are 100%. Congruent with the overarching business revenue metrics. You’re going to have some great outcomes, but you need to, before you even get into building out this team, recognize that you are part of a greater revenue team. And this is why you have. Companies that now have not chief marketing officers, but chief revenue officers. Which essentially.

Roll up.

The marketing and sales function, you need to recognize it as a revenue team. So when your marketing efforts are rolled out, that they are. Focused. And combined with the sales marketing, the sales efforts to ensure that, you know, Generating dollars and generating new clients is the peak of what people require. In your business. So first things first go in there with the mindset that, yes, this is all about generating revenue. If the marketing team that you hire, all the marketing employees. That you decide to bring into the team, do not understand this. You’re already putting yourself at a massive disadvantage, recognize what your company’s vision a north star is. And what does that revenue target look like and understand. And determine whether or not your team members know that, Hey, we actually need to get.

Our shit together so we can go about. Bringing in new people into the brand. Getting them onto the website, engaging with the valuable pages that enable our customers to essentially self-serve and then. Self submit to becoming part of the sales process. And then being able to have that. Captured information loop from the sales team, which leads to revenue, feeding that back to marketing. So your first real key here. Is a mindset shift where you need to ensure that your marketing efforts are all revenue driven or their sales led. So that’s the first thing you really need to look at. Now, when it comes to building out your team, this is where it’s going to get really funny. I’m. Looking forward to this part of the conversation today. Because when you’re building out your team for the first time, You can’t. Eat this first things first, you may not have the money. And it may just be you.

But. We live in 2023 and there are some really compelling things out there that can help you. Do a lot of your marketing, if you are a lone Wolf in your product. So for instance, just say you’re the only sole founder. That’s doing everything. The web design, the social media, all that stuff. And you don’t have the money. It’s never been a better time to be a broke founder because for less than $3 a month, you can get your hands on a copy of chat GPT four, which can help you create amazing content. If you get onto YouTube, you can look up. AI prompt. Engineering classes. You can look at what you need to say in order to develop really good copy. As long as you’ve got a basic understanding of terms like lead generation direct response advertising and the platforms. That you wish to be running ads on or writing landing pages for, or building websites for you’re going to be our carrier. And I’m, I really do emphasize that chatGPT has made it a lot easier for. Sole business owners to become successful. In short periods of time, sir, I do want to emphasize that that is a possibility for you.

Now. If I was you. And you were going to either. Make your first hire. Whether it be an agency. Or building out an internal team member. The first thing I would be choosing in my marketing team. My B2B SaaS marketing team is. I would not be opting for an agency to begin with. If I was here, the first hire I would make would be a general marketing assistant. That can help you out with the very simple things. If you need copy on our website, they can pump out the copy. If they can, if you need social posting to build out a brand that people love, you need that person inside the business you need. Uh, generalist all rounder. There may be somewhat T-shaped when it comes to a particular area.

For instance, you may be a founder or essentially a marketing lead or marketing sales led founder. And you may have really great experience when it comes to media buying. Hire that first assisted. Train them up in that media buying platform. And then put them to YouTube university and get them learning about media buying, get them learning about how to run ads, how that all fits in the grand scheme of things. When it comes to your vision. As soon as you’ve hired. That first marketing is system. Believe it or not. You remember you are having to spoon feed this person to begin with. This is whilst you’re broke. FYI. I just want to let you know that. Because if you all, at that point, when you can’t afford high quality talent, Uh, marketing system may be the very first thing you look towards. However, if you are cash strapped and you are at this stage higher. Highest quality generalist you can find to begin with. Highest quality generalists spend good money on this because they can essentially take what you’re building and run with all your ideas.

So there’s two paths. If you’re the bootstrap pop, you’re going to have to provide the person with a lot of strategic direction. So get that marketing generalist might be a, you know, a three to five years experience, but. I provide them with the direction, point them in the right direction. If you’ve got the money and you’ve owned, and this is your first marketing hire. Pay as much as you possibly can, for the best person you can afford. And expect to spend six figures on this person as they will be able to take everything and run with it. But again, What really comes down to at the end of the day is high quality management and ensuring that that person’s efforts are aligned with your revenue goals and your mission, vision for your B2B SaaS. So that’s the first thing you must do. This would be. You know, a person that can write copy, post things to social run, the old Facebook and LinkedIn and Google lied. This can be the person who can oversee and manage the website. Uh, Review the Google analytics information, even get inside of HubSpot and figure out what’s going on. That’s the very first hire you must make as a B2B growth leader. Once you get that dumb. You’re going to start to see as your business grows and you start generating leads and sales, and you start pulling off all these initiatives that there are going to be challenges along the way. Your guy, isn’t your guy or your girl. Isn’t going to be able to write enough. Copy. You’re not going to have the web development chops to do the right things. At this stage. When there are small projects to be done. Don’t go out and hire a full timer.

The next hire you must make at this point is agency assistance. If you’ve got, say a two or three person marketing team at this point, you’ve got sales reps and all that sort of stuff. You’re probably an eight person business. And at this stage, when you have yourself, plus your marketing assistant. You’ve probably got a business just doing anywhere between 10 to $15,000 a month in recurring revenue. And it’s at this stage, you need to go out and hire agencies for specialist help. Where we see a lot of our business come through it O and D digital, when it comes to media buying or strategy or whatever. Most of the businesses sit anywhere between that 20 to $50,000 a month in this SaaS journey. Why is that the case? Well, it’s because of the fact that they’re doing a lot of the good stuff, in-house, they’re acquiring users and they want to scale up quickly. And I’m sure when you’re at this point, you want to start scaling because you can see the results that are happening.

Again, you’re not going to go and just drop 20 grand a month on Facebook ads, unless you can see some meaningful results getting churned out the other end. So with your first player, that’s when you can use yourself from a strategic perspective in forming your, your high performing marketing person, or if that high-performing marketing, person’s got a better vision than you have, and you can step out of the way and just proactively manage them. Or if it’s your marketing junior, this is when you start in. Hiring agencies for specialist skills. Recognize your skills and then determine the best agencies to hire. A common one will be finding a content creation agencies. Let’s be Frank as you scale up your business and you look from scrappy to schmick, are you need a really good content marketing agency to assist you with high quality blog posts, great videos, great social posts. Your branding needs to be locked on.

That’s great skillset. We don’t have that in house that needs to be outsourced. Just say you’re great at copy, but you can’t run out. Hire the ad person, do a really, really well. Just say you’re really good at all the technical stuff, but you’ve got no strategy. Find that strategy piece, hire that person in. Like a download on all that expertise and run with it. It’s at this point where you’ve got your social media humming along. Yeah. Initial bunch of ads running, whether it be on Google, Facebook, or Metta or Instagram or LinkedIn or being, or whatever. Right. Like, this is like, it’s all happening and it’s old. I told where I could, well, to an extent, right. But then. It’s when you go. So the next stage, once again, It’s when you start. Needing some additional agency support. This is fairly common after you’ve got that first marketing person that can then manage the agencies. Instead of you trying to manage the agencies and the marketing person. That’s where it, that’s where you start to have some real wins. In your relationship with those marketing agencies?

At this point, you’re going to have ads running. If you’re marketing agencies. Good. They’ll probably write your copy for you and that’s, that would help you out. Or if you’re a content marketing agency that you’ve hired, sorry. If you’ve hired a content marketing agency. They are going to be scripting. Your videos are going to get you to speak. They going to be doing whatever. If you found an SEO agency, they’re probably writing your blog posts and stuff. It’s at this point, you need the agency to be out putting as much as you possibly, as they possibly can from a content creation perspective to ensure that your marketing. Assistant or your high-performing marketing leader. Is as leveraged as they possibly can. Again, at all of these different stages. When you hire the agency, and this is probably a subject of its own podcast, you need to really ensure that that marketing assistant or marketing leader has a really good matrix as to how they work with the agency. What does the agency need? How can we ensure that they have a really good.

How can we develop a win-win relationship with them to ensure that we’re generating users to ensure that we’re getting the right content to ensure that we’re pulling off our demand generation and our direct response advertising efforts effectively, you know what I mean? So get that reporting. I get that. Rules of the game. Get that like level playing field where you’re building out and cultivating that win-win relationship. And hiring in the agency for that specialist help. There. And then that’s like a super, super important thing. At this stage as well. Another thing that we would recommend you outsource is your web development, because at the end of the day, There’s nothing worse than a creative marketer being stuck inside a web CMS, trying to fix shit all day long. They may love web development. They may love all that stuff, but there’s nothing worse than a more of a time-suck than to get. Uh, web development. Um, responsibility inside of your business at this point. That’s the next thing you need to pretty much outsource right away. So you’ve gotten your first employee in doing some amazing work, the heavy lifting, whether they be an assistant or essentially a pseudo CMR. They managing your agencies. They’ve you’ve outsourced or your web technical challenges and things like that. And you’ve got all these initiatives rolling out. What’s the next thing. Believe it or not the most, the most important next hire. Isn’t something technical. It’s actually your copywriter. Now once you’ve got. Once now. Please hear me out here.

The reason why you want to hire a copywriter and keep them in-house it’s because of the fact that you need to ensure that your tone of voice is consistent across all of your platforms, right? So if you’re running Google ads, if you’re running Facebook ads, you’re doing organic posts on Instagram, LinkedIn being YouTube ads, whatever you’re doing, you’re sure that your tone of voice is absolutely doubted. Across the board. Because if you’ve got no one to write content, if you’ve got no one to post content, if you’ve got no one to oversee this tone of voice. You’re not just like your tone of voice is wrong and that your copy may not be as effective, but your brand is getting smashed every single day. So when you build out, whether it be a B2B growth marketing team from a digital side of things, or even a marketing agency, often people don’t bring the copywriter. In-house soon enough. And what that does. It takes the media buying. The media buying generalist a way. From what they do best. See. If you’ve got a, a marketing. Assistant or CMO. Who’s really good at looking at the data and making top level decisions. It’s probably not his strong point too. Right at. But it’s not a strong point and not a great business decision too. Outsource your copy to four to five different people or five or four to five different agencies to get that consistent. Right.

So, if you’re going to build out this marketing team, define a content writer and copywriter who can write your ads. Your blog posts. At someone who can be at least trained up in the power of direct response copywriting to generate new leads on demand. It’s like a super crucial one. So you, as you’ve got your, um, your marketing assistant, you’ve got the agencies and have a copywriter work alongside these agencies. What’s also really crucial here is if you have that copywriter, you can negotiate better rights with your agencies and you can help that agency do what it loves to do. By just managing the media. Running the ads to like an inch of perfection. But by providing them the copy, you’ve got to be able to get a discount on their services as well. So there’s a bit of a pro tip for y’all who have never been around the block. When it comes to the next members of your marketing team. This is where it can vary from organization to organization.

We’ve worked with enterprise clients have literally three people in their marketing team. And we’ve worked with small businesses with like 15 people in their marketing team. What we’re now starting to see though, is that. If you want to compete in the demand generation world, which we are pushing into in the B2B SaaS world. Not only do you need a copywriter now, but it’s crucial to have an in-house video editor. Now. I’m a huge advocate for finding people in disadvantaged communities to make this work. So if you are open to employing someone in the Philippines or India or Africa, or in a community that really needs assistance, you can find yourself really high quality video editors that have gone through rigorous training to deliver amazing results.

We use them at Owendenny digital. That valued members of our team, and we love them. But we’ve brought this in-house do you know why? Because we understand how important the amount of content we need to generate is in order for us to remain relevant. Not culturally, but also economically insight. Of this market that we live in. Sir. You’ve got your marketing assistant. Or your CMR. You’ve got your content writer. Or your copywriter. And you’ve got a video editor. You essentially now. Have a full content team. You’ve got a copywriter. A video editor or a video. And if that person you can bring them in house, if you’ve got the money to do such thing, bring them, in-house support them with a video editor and ensure that that video videographer content creator is able to then shoot you. Communicating through exactly what you do. In your business. I think you’re going to be in a really good spot.

So again, you brought the content creation, in-house brought the copywriting. In-house, you’re overseeing everything. It’s at this stage where you need to make a pivotal. Move. So. You’ve got content internally. You’ve got a CMO or you may have a marketing assistant. At this point, this is when you need to decide whether you get yourself a marketing assistant, or a CMR to oversee the whole situation. Once you have this, this CMR can then overlook. Activations can look overlook, networking events can overlook a whole heap of in-person events and then can develop the reporting frameworks to report upwards to the right people. Oh, hang on. My dog’s just visit me. Hello, Zoe. How are you sweetie? Hope you guys don’t mind. Um, This is when we believe the CMO is needed. When you’ve got one or two people on the ground on a, sorry, three or four people on the ground. You need. The CMR to be able to report up. This is where we find it really, really important.

But. It’s at this point, now that you’ve got a four or five person team. And this is when.

You make philosophical choices around hiring. Four. Whether it be manpower or you hire for specialist expertise. Now. There’s no, there’s no denying this fact that. If you are strong with your media buying and you’re doing it internally in your business. That’s great. But if you know, you’re weak, With your media buying internally inside of your business, you’re going to need agency help. Agency help. At. This level when you already have a five or six person strong marketing team. Is crucial. Because of the fact that enables you to get to the next level. Now I did watch very interesting. Uh, video by Alex called mosey recently on how to use marketing agencies. To help your business grow? I would totally recommend everyone. Check that one out. On. On YouTube at some great video, it will help you get a better understanding of how to best use. Agencies to propel your business. Forward into its next level of growth. But that’s where I see it. Get your first marketing assistant. Get a content copywriter. Get your video editor in there. Get agencies to help you out with special niche subjects, whether it be Google tag manager, tracking Google ads, Facebook ads, LinkedIn ads, et cetera, et cetera. Manage your social media internally. So your organic social media. And then fire up your CMO and make that happen.

Look, I hope this has been valuable. It’s been 25 minutes. I didn’t know where this one was going to go, but I really do appreciate the fact that you’ve been here today. And if you need any assistance, if you just want to pick a. If you just want to have a quick chat about what you’re doing when you’re building your B2B marketing team. Hit me up. There’s a link here to book a free 10 minute chat, where we can go through exactly what you’re doing, where you could be improving things and identify whether or not we may even be able to help you out in the future. Once again, thank you so much for tuning into open source growth. You’ve been speaking with Dean or listening. Really. Listening to Dean to any founder and director of Australia’s top ranked SaaS marketing agency. Owen to any digital check us out at Owendenny digital. Talk soon.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠⁠⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠⁠⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

Building High Performance Software Teams And Companies With Frederic Joye, Co-Founder Of Arcanys

In this episode of Open Source Growth Podcast, Frederic Joye, co-founder of Arcanys, shares a fascinating journey through the software industry. The discussion commences with an introduction to Frederic and his pivotal role in establishing Arcanys. Together, they delve into the profound impact of the software outsourcing industry on the Philippines’ economic landscape.

Notably, the podcast explores how outsourcing BPO services can uplift wages in developing countries, such as the Philippines. An essential facet of their conversation revolves around Arcanis’ triumphant employee culture, fostering both professional development and career progression for its developers.

In summary, this podcast not only offers a glimpse into Frederic Joye’s dynamic career but also underscores the unique and empowering philosophy of Arcanys. It stresses the importance of holistic development, inclusivity, and self-confidence in the professional world.

Lessons Learned

Here are the top 5 lessons learned from the podcast with Frederic Joye:

1) Impact of Outsourcing: The outsourcing of software development can have a significant impact on the economy of countries like the Philippines, contributing to GDP growth and increased wages.

2) Employee-Centric Culture: Fostering a positive employee culture and offering opportunities for personal growth can lead to a low attrition rate and a more engaged workforce.

3) Client Focus and Adaptation: Being adaptable and shifting focus from large corporate clients to entrepreneurs and smaller businesses can be a strategic move for long-term success.

4) Unique Business Model: The podcast showcases a unique business model where payment is received only upon achieving success, emphasizing the importance of helping clients succeed.

5) Diversity and Inclusion: The importance of diversity and inclusion in the workplace is highlighted, and personal experiences underscore the significance of creating an inclusive environment for all employees.

Welcome to open source growth, your number one destination for growing your software company through the power of direct response, advertising, Facebook advertising, and so, so, so much more. And in today’s episode, I have the exceptional gift of having a long standing client. I would consider not just a client, but also a friend of mine on the podcast by the name of Frederick Joy.

Fred is one of the most inspiring co founders I have ever met when it comes to building a software development agency that scales. Fred’s been in the game for over 20 years. He’s been working in IT and operational projects in the finance and software industry in Switzerland. Before arriving at an epiphany with his best friend, Alan to co-found AR Canis in 2010.

After 20 years of experience in the industry, Fred is now leading the worldwide sales and marketing efforts of Arkanis. And they have been recently crowned, and I want you to correct me on this Fred, the number one workplace in the Philippines or like, what is it exactly? Yeah. Number 26 on the list of the best IT BPM workplaces in the Philippines.

Yeah. Number 26. And like, as we all know, if you’re, if you’re building a SaaS product here, We know that everyone is offshoring their shit to the Philippines. So like to rank number 26, like how many it BPM firms are there? Actually, before we start, what is BPM for those not familiar with the chat? So hi, Dean.

Thanks for having me. I’m also super happy to do this with you. Yep. So BPM is business process, um, management. Um, Uh, outsourcing, I think, uh, the way they, they say, um, yeah, so NBPM and yeah, amazing, amazing. And now from the last time you checked, how many firms are offering, you know, outsourced software development in the Philippines?

I don’t know. Um, I don’t know. Like, I know a lot. So if we look at all the BPO, uh, BPOs, as we call them, so some can be IT related. Some others are more like, uh, customer centric or technical support. It’s thousands. I mean, it’s employing, I think. Close to 10 percent of it’s creating 10 percent of the of the GDP of the country.

So it’s a really huge industry. And so it’s millions of jobs, but I don’t have the I don’t have the numbers. Yeah, well, you certainly have some numbers. So what you’re telling me that for every, if you have 10, uh, Philippines people in a room, one out of 10 of them is likely to be working in this situation from based on everyone should.

Developing the same amount of GDP. Yeah. Well, a bit less. Exactly. A bit less because it’s higher paying jobs, right? Compared to the rest of what Filipinos are earning. So all these VPOs, uh, um, are usually paying a bit more, uh, than the regular, uh. Jobs in the Philippines. So I would say it’s slightly less than 10 percent of the population, but it represents about 10 percent of the GDP.

That’s amazing. So what you’re telling me is that like, even like, because in Australia and in the Western world, outsourcing has had a dirty name in the past. They’ve always thought of like, let’s cut costs and stuff like that and pay and, and experience the joys of the arbitrage of Charging a whole lot for a service and then finding someone in a third world country to do it cheaply.

But what you’re telling us is that by engaging BPO services, you’re able to really increase like that average wage for the people in in that country. Is that what’s going on? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So cool. Yeah, yeah. So for example, a software engineer in the Philippines earns at least 10 times the minimum wage, maybe not at least, but close to 10 times the minimum wage in the Philippines, right?

So that, but that’s, that’s the highest paying job, for example, in the Philippines of average is a software engineer. So they are earning a lot more. Then I don’t know the people who are working in supermarkets without mentioning also all the, um, the, the, um, economy that’s. Is not counted, right? Like these small jobs and things like that.

So, yeah, yeah. Wow. That is phenomenal. I think it’s, I think it’s really interesting to see, um, that and, you know, I’m, I’m a huge advocate for supporting, you know, you know, these BPO firms like yourselves in the Philippines, because. At the end of the day, if you’re able to, you know, lift the quality of life for people who have been for a significant amount of time while we disadvantaged, it’s just so empowering to be able to do this.

And I think that if we start, you know, looking at it from a humanitarian perspective as well, but. The work that these BPO firms are doing. It’s just amazing. Like you are literally, you know, you’re really elevating countries and turning them into destinations where business really thrives. And, you know, the wildly educated and widely skilled people can thrive.

In, um, the setup of a great company. And that’s one thing guys, that one thing I’ve noticed about Arcanis when we’ve worked with you guys for the better part of five to six months now, um, is that Arcanis, unlike any other, um, software development company has really nailed. Employee culture, like I don’t know anyone who has got so many team, like talk about your engagement stats like here, Fred, because I know you, you guys have done a huge body of work on this.

Yeah, so, I mean, the main stat that we have is, um, is that we have a low attrition rate in the industry. So I think, uh, it’s well above 20 percent in general, both in Australia and. The Philippines is even higher, actually, for, uh, software engineers. If we look at the BPO in general, it couldn’t, it can go close to 100 percent per year.

Yeah. But that’s not our business, right? But at Arcanis, we’re like, maybe slightly below 10 percent of attrition per year. So we’re At least half of of what other companies are experiencing. And, um, but that’s because we put emphasis on on the, um, I mean, on the culture, as you said, and trying to make sure that people feel really great, uh, working with us.

So it’s not just the perks. It’s, uh, uh, and the salary. It’s also like. We choose who we work with, like our clients. We put as much effort selecting our clients as they put efforts in selecting us. And one of the reasons is we want to make sure that our developers are working on projects that make them grow.

As an engineer, um, and as people, uh, obviously, uh, preferably as well, but, uh, that’s, that’s how we see it, right? If people like what they’re doing, they’re interested, and then they don’t see this as a dead end for their career moving forward, because we know that probably they won’t, you know, stay their whole life at Arkanis.

At least they have some stepped up to, uh, to have a better life after that. And actually a lot of people that leave the company, uh, they don’t. Leave for another company in the Philippines, but they go abroad. Um, they go to Singapore or Australia, New Zealand. Some of them left for Canada as well. And so that’s a huge, I think, stepping stone, uh, for them, for them.

Um, wow. Dennis. Yeah. That’s amazing. And do you hear back from any of those developers that Yeah. Decide to, to head off to Canada or Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, so there’s people like in, in, in Singapore, if I’m traveling, there’s one I became really good friends with. So I would have, you know, dinner with them or, uh, when I’m in Australia, visit my clients from New Zealand that I have a few that are like, Hey, you’re around Fred, you know?

I don’t always have the time to see them, but, uh, yeah, they reach out and, you know, because they also keep their friends at Arcani. So we are kind of updated, Alan and I, with what’s going on with other people, um, that we had been working with in the past. So, yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s so cool. And that’s so cool.

Like, imagine that as a, as a young developer, you get a job at Arcanis, you develop a great set of skills. You, you work on tip of the spear projects with the biggest names in the Australian SAS landscape, and also some of these massive names around the globe. Like, talk about some of the global clients you’re working with.

Like, what are a few of the names? I keep on forgetting, like, is it John here and a few other big, sorry. Who are the big players that you’re currently working with? We’ve worked, uh, yeah, with some big, big companies like GE or, or, um, or Honda or, uh, what else? Uh, L’Oreal. But, so that was, that was in the, in the past.

We, we finished. Projects with them. Um, now we’re mostly looking at working with, you know, like, uh, entrepreneurs or small to medium businesses that where we can really have more of an impact. I mean, because we are impact driven where we want to also give purpose to our employees and not just be numbers in teams, right?

And so that’s why we really want to work with companies that are medium. Some of them are, are later scale ups if you want. So it’s still sizable enough so they can have a sizable team with us, but that they’re still part of the, like the, uh, a team, um, that’s a human size as well. And I think that’s helps them identify themselves to the companies they’re working with.

And, um, just, it’s just. Nicer to work in a smaller business than just a huge, uh, corporation. That’s maybe a little less personal, but, um, you know, it’s still interesting to work with. Yeah. There’s a real sweet spot with, you know, being in the services businesses, like with the businesses that you support and you serve, you know, I’ve noticed that with my own marketing team and the clients that we work with, when it’s just like a single marketing person in the company, or you’re working directly with the founder often.

It can be a little us and them, but when you’re part of like a fabric of a marketing team and you come in there and you support, whether it’s from an advisory perspective as a CMO, or if you’re just providing them with a traffic service, it’s just so much more fulfilling. And I’m sure that’s how your developers feel because from the sounds of things with a lot of the clients that you work with.

And obviously, I know, because I help you with a lot of this stuff too, right? Is that you want these developers to come in like 2 or 3 developers to be inserted as amongst the fabric of an already already. Strong tech team, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It’s so cool. Like, so like, cause here’s the thing guys to get to, like, to be qualified as a great place to work in the Philippines.

Like you say 26 or 27, it may not sound that impressive, but it’s damn right. Impressive. Like the amount of work that. Arcanist has had to go through to get to that stage. Actually. That’s an interesting thing we could talk about. How did you arrive at winning or placing in that award? Like that’s, that’s impressive.

How did you get there? What, what, what, um, So to get placed there, it wasn’t that hard. We just sent a survey to, to the employees and they, they responded to the, so it’s anonymous and it’s handled by this work. Right. And, uh, actually, uh, I have, uh, uh, so that’s the number 26 in the Philippines. Let’s go. So, um, yeah, so it’s so we send a survey and then they responded to, I don’t know how many questions and, um, and then it’s compared to other companies that, uh, that have responded.

And then they rank you based on, I mean, the answers, right? So they covers different topics and, um. And we actually received the results so we can keep on improving. But, uh, so that’s kind of like the easy part is sending a survey and then having people, uh, uh, respond to it. But it took years, uh, for us to really, uh, build that culture.

And we still doing it right. We, we try to improve, uh, every year on, on, on things. So it started small. ’cause when we started like, uh, 13 years ago, we didn’t have the means that we. And today we basically started with zero clients. Yeah, let’s, let’s get to it. Let’s start, hang on, hang on, before we even go there.

So you will, let’s, let’s even go a step back before you even thought about partnering with Alan and all the crazy stuff. Like, so let’s talk about, cause you would have been in your early twenties when you were in the banking world, right? Yeah. Uh, yeah, I started in insurance actually. So I did really the insurance guy.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, but I didn’t sell insurance, but I’m an insurance guy. Um, and, uh, actually before starting Arcanis, I never sold anything. Uh, not even my used phones, but, um, but, uh, so yeah, I was in my, Okay. I was very bad, uh, in school and, um, I tried university and, uh, I was also very bad. So at some point my parents kicked me out and said, Hey, Fred, how about you, you know, uh, try to get a life and do something.

Uh, so, so then I got an internship in an insurance company after applying to a hundred. Companies are so, and then, uh, yeah, well, but then I got, I got, uh, helped by, um, by a friend of mine who knew the chairman of the company. So I have no, uh, you know, my, my, my resume had absolutely nothing for me. Uh, but, uh, so I got to, I got this internship and, um, uh, which was supposed to be for one year for me to be able to join, uh, Uh, the university again, because I got kicked out from one, um, faculty, but I wanted to join another one.

And this one required me to have at least one year of professional experience. So I did three, four months of like, wherever they put me, cause they didn’t really know where to put me actually. Um, it’s like, Oh, the boss is telling you to take this one and then just do whatever, you know? So, um, I got put in a team where I was really interested, where we had to solve.

Process issues for one of the departments and the department I was in was the department of internal outsourcing. If you want, if you have, if any department had problems, they would call in these people to actually. Uh, do business process outsourcing to this department with people to do it. So I got put in, in one of these teams, um, and I got pretty fascinated by, by what we had to do.

So without knowing it, I took the lead. Of that team of, I don’t know, four or five people, um, uh, and, um, and then three months after, four months after my boss came to me and he’s like, um, Fred, we can’t have a trainee being a manager. That’s not okay. And I was like, oh my God, I’m going to get fired or something, you know, and they’re like, so how about, um, we give you an actual job and you become an employee.

And so, of course, I was super happy. And so that’s how it started. I worked at that company for five years. Uh, so I did all these outsourcing kind of things. Yeah. Um, and then I also, um, became the deputy. Manager of this department after five years with 120 people or something like that to, uh, to look after.

And I was doing, um, I was working a lot with, um, providers from. Different kinds of I. T. Uh, non I. T. providers because I was, uh, purchasing, um, head of, uh, I mean, not head, but like, uh, one of the purchasers for the company and also, so dealing with all the contracts and, um, uh, our RFQs and, and things like that.

Plus, I got also involved in, um, a migration. Project of their, um, software that was running on mainframes. So, and then there, we hired a consulting group, um, to, to, I mean, to do the work. And so I was involved in these projects as a young, um, I mean, young professional. I was, I don’t know, until 2025. Uh, I worked until 20.

Okay. Five or 26 years old at this company. Um, and so at the same time, I kept on studying to get my, my bachelor’s degree. Um, what was your bachelor’s degree? And out of curiosity, business administration and entrepreneurship. And so that was like during the five, first five years of my career, then I moved, um, onto doing the same thing as a.

Uh, uh, in purchasing and also in, in outsourcing, outsourcing inside the company. So we had like, uh, one of the internal services kind of, uh, a department in a private bank. Um, I did this for about 18 months. Um, and, um. I, uh, uh, I had to leave because it was, it was too boring for me. Like, there were too many, you know, limitations and stuff like that.

So, cause like, let me just, let’s just, just, just to unpack this just so, you know, because at the end of the day, right, there’s a lot of color. In one’s life before they arrive at starting their own company. And if you go from insurance, which is quite highly regulated, and then you push across to banking, which is quite highly regulated, one was, was an exhilarating experience where you picked up this fascination.

With business processes and, you know, that the runnings, the internal runnings of a business and how they go about in sourcing and outsourcing. Like, I don’t it’s really cool. Yeah, I think it’s, um,

look, I don’t, I don’t know. Um, I’ve, I’m always, I was always interested with strategy and stuff like that. And, uh. Um, the, the first job, the insourcing part led me also to participate in a project where we analyzed every single process of the entire company for, um, everything that was related to signing an insurance contract to a claim.

And stuff like it’s all the business thing. That’s what an insurance is, is made up. So we went in all the agencies, not all of them, but a lot of the agencies throughout the country. Uh, interviewed people, measured exactly what they did. And so we mapped with, uh, with, uh, it was a McKinsey, um, um, consultant and an internal consultant with this with, and that’s from these people.

I learned most of the organizational stuff and the analysis and things like that. And so we had this map of the entire processes of the company and we knew down to the second, how much time every task would take. So that’s our mission that we were, uh, meant to, to perform. Right. And so, um, and the second thing that they didn’t tell us when we started is, okay, now you map everything.

So then we had the calculation of how many per, uh, agency or, or branch and per year and like, and so, Okay. We have all the load. We know exactly what people do. And then he’s like, okay, so given the number of people, the amount of work that’s done, how can we fire 20, 20 percent of the people there? Oh,

yes. And then so every year, every 6 months, I had to crunch. Because the one of the, uh, consultants got fired. And so I had to crunch all these data by myself. Um, every 6 months, so it took me 2 months to crunch all the data, but I knew everything what was happening everywhere. Um, and so it, it also kind of, um, taught me a lot because everybody was afraid talking to me.

Because I was the messenger, I mean, the bad messenger, not to fire people, but I was the spy or like the spy in the company, knowing everything that people did, uh, it would give me all the numbers. So I knew exactly where people were too many and then, uh, where we could also have efficiency gains. Um, and, uh.

Because all of these decisions were strategic as well, uh, then I got on onto, uh, the board of that company as a, as an executive, like I was 25 years old. People said no one had ever been this young at this thing. And then of course, a lot of people were talking shit about me because they knew I knew the chairman.

So everybody thought it was because I knew the chairman. Um, but anyway, so there was, uh, there were lots of stories, but it was, I got. So obsessed actually, uh, with that. And I think a lot of people probably like you with marketing at some point, uh, at some point in your life, and that’s how you build your career.

You become obsessed with something. So with, for me, I was obsessed about efficiency. I was obsessed about, uh, making things, uh, work better in everything I did. So it was the processes of the company. It was the purchasing part of things. It was. Uh, uh, yeah, any project that was given to me, I was trying to make it easier and and more efficient.

So, and then when I went, like, what an amazing proving ground to build a wildly successful, um, software. Outsourcing firm like yourselves are like that. That must that experience must have paid spades for you now. Yeah, I guess. I mean, um, uh, I guess. I mean, I can’t always relate exactly what I had learned there to me.

I am right. But, uh, yeah, I guess I think it’s. Maybe what attracted, besides our friendship, Alan to ask me if I could work with him. Yep. Um, because, uh, I visited him in 2008 in Hong Kong. I was bored in my, in Switzerland. I knew, I always knew I wanted to leave. And, uh, uh, but I never had the opportunity to, to do something entrepreneurial before that.

And so when he asked me like, Hey, I’m setting up a new business, uh, you want to come work with me and knowing that he had exited his previous business for a couple of hundreds of millions of dollars, um, these guys asking me to work with him. Uh, I can’t refuse. Like, I mean, he’s, you know, uh, why would I refuse?

And it was the second time he asked me actually at the first time I said no. Um. And I was like, for years, I regretted it. I’m like, Oh fuck. I said no to these guy. I could do, I have lived an even more incredible experience. Um, and so when he offered me a second time and it’s like, dude, I’m starting these small business and e commerce thing in video games, I don’t have much money.

You know, because we’re not making money in that business, so I can pay you a little bit, uh, and then I didn’t even ask what I was going to do. I’m like, yeah, just help me with the visa. And, uh, and 3 months later, I had my luggage. I was in Hong Kong. I had sold everything I had, uh, in Switzerland. And then, uh, I landed in Hong Kong and that’s what we worked on for the next 18 months.

I would say. Well, and that’s when we. Decided to move parts of the, I mean, the operations that we had in Hong Kong. So customer service people and a bunch of, we had a bunch of developers in India. We, we moved to the Philippines, uh, cause of the skills, the English was a lot better than in Hong Kong and the cost.

Was also, uh, lower than what we had in Hong Kong. So the value for money was much better. So we didn’t go there for charitable reasons and because we wanted to change the world and stuff like that. We just had a business we needed to run and we had to service our clients better with the money that we had available.

Right. So, but then. We discovered the beauty of the Philippines and, and the people and so on, and that e commerce business wasn’t doing so well. So, at some point, so what were you selling out of curiosity? Oh, we were selling, okay. Selling and buying game accounts for World of Warcraft, um, stuff like that.

It was a bit of a gray area, right? But then the industry changed because the game editors were like, hey, why don’t we capture. That for ourselves, instead of having a third parties doing it. Right. So then we kind of died, um, slowly. Uh, and at some point I told that I’m doing, um, I’m taking money from you as my salary, which was not much, but I was still taking some money out of this to live because I didn’t have much money.

And I was feeling bad because I’m like, I’m not delivering much value because the business is dying. Um, and I didn’t see this carrying on. So I was at some point, I was like, so what do I just, what do I do? Do I go back to Switzerland, uh, you know, and, and call it quits, you know? And so that was not really an option I wanted to follow.

And then the amazing story of Arcanis. Here we go. Here we go. I’m, I’m, I’m exaggerating because It just happened over a pizza. So there was no, there was no business plan, no nothing. Um, so I was like, Hey, so what do we do? You know, business is not going great. We had a bunch of developers that we had hired for ourselves.

And to maintain the e commerce platform. And then we had another bunch of friends, uh, devs.

Um, so it was maybe one or two or something like that or like, what’s up with devs? Like, yeah, because at the time we had the dot net store fronts for the e commerce stuff and our partners were, I think, using dot net guys or maybe Java guys. I can’t remember. Yeah, but, uh, so we had this and I was like, so what do we do?

And Alan was like, uh. I don’t know. And we came. I don’t know if it’s him or me. I can’t remember. But we like, so how about we do better outsourcing? Because we had been clients of outsourcing companies. It was always a pretty shitty experience from what we had. Um, so we’re like, We know how to hire devs. Oh, there’s plenty of devs in the Philippines.

They’re pretty good. Um, why don’t we do this? You know, and, uh, so basically, yeah, so basically what you’re saying is you, you guys didn’t quite get where you want it with e com, but what you figured out in the process was how to hire devs effectively and yeah, I think people in general. Oh yeah, absolutely.

And. Yeah. This is where I’m really curious because I think this is where a lot of people are going to be interested on this episode. Can you unpack your experiences working with these outsourcing companies? And what did you learn through those processes? Like what, what, what were you, what, what were you so frustrated about when you were going through it?

Because obviously you were trying to build the store. You were trying to hire devs. You’ve been burned, blah, blah, blah. Just tell me about that. Well, I think the outsourcing industry has evolved a lot over the years. But 13 years ago, it was mostly Indian companies who were kind of not very honest in the way they were doing stuff because they were hiring people.

And then, uh, when you, when you reach out to them, like, Hey, I need to this, whatever. And they would play place. They’re 18 for you for about a month. You know, like when you hire the guys, super nice, you have a neat ish and, uh, uh, someone else. And then suddenly the same neat ish and whatever else, suddenly their quality would drop one day.

Uh, but he’s still the same person. You’d never see them on camera. Yeah. Uh, you just talk to them through a chat and stuff, and then actually what they were doing is they would change people all the time without telling you and and charging you, I mean, ongoing more money, of course, over the years. And they were delivering a really shitty, uh, outsourcing experience.

Um, the management practices were probably not as elaborated as today. Uh, remote work was, uh, maybe just 10 years old, you know, and so it was an awesome, uh, uh, industry. And, um, and also there were so many cultural differences, you know, like, uh, so we were in train for that. We. Just try to do whatever we were so inexperienced with, with these guys at this level.

When, when we, when we were, I was working with the insurance industry, for example, we had like hundreds of people who are working for us. They were on site in Switzerland, probably costing tens of thousands of bucks a month. But it was super high level things for high level companies, but we’re not fortune 500 and stuff like that.

So I had seen how it was well managed. I had seen how it was badly managed and the same thing with outsourcing in China and India and stuff. So we’re like, Oh, fuck that. We, we want to make this, you know, but a lot better. We wanted, we called it between us outsourcing 2. 0, you know, like, uh, Um, and that’s what we tried to do, but we kind of sucked at the start, like, uh, we were pretty bad.

Um, don’t we? Like, I think that’s what’s really, what’s cool though, right? Is the fact that you can acknowledge that you sucked at the start, but then you’ve gotten to a point where you’re clearly one of the best in the entire, like in the mecca of outsourcing. So like, you know, No, no, but think of it this way, right?

Like I know, I’ve seen the Clutch reviews, like they’re, they’re gnarly for Arcanis, like, and I, like, like, wasn’t it, I think you were ranked number one in Clutch or there was a, few different, um, there was a few different, um, benchmarks and scorecards that I’ve seen over the years for Arcanis and it’s been number one.

In 2019, in 2021, in 2022, I think it was only this year that you dropped off like the number one. I didn’t ask reviews for, for my clients for a while. And, and, uh, And so we dropped in the rankings because we didn’t take care of that. And, uh, we’re fixing this. Uh, but yeah, I mean, uh, yeah, our clients are happy.

We have an NPS score of like 81 or something. And so I was kind of surprised when I was measuring the stuff. But so, yeah, I, I think we’re, I mean, I don’t know if we’re the best, but our clients are happy and that’s, you know, what matters. Um, yeah, 100%. I think that’s the only way you can measure. If you are the best or not, if you, if, if your clients are speaking highly of you, are you receiving referrals?

What sort of doors are they opening for you? That’s when you know, you’re doing amazing things as a services business. So after experiencing, you know, the, the highs and lows of working. Um, you know, with, um, you know, these Indian outsourcing companies and obviously Allen’s worked with Chinese and, you know, there’s all different outsourcing companies.

You arrived at the Philippines and you thought, hang on, these people are magnificent. This is a great work culture. We could, we could start up Arcanis. We could do this really, really well. And you began at Arcanis with BPO work. Was it always? Software though, because I, I have a funny, I have a funny feeling.

Also, everyone I’ve been looking at the Google AdWords account that it wasn’t just, um, yeah, it wasn’t just software dev like you’ve tried a few things. Yeah, we, we did customer service or technical service stuff because we had all these people from the, uh, from the e commerce stuff. We had a lot like 35 or 40.

Uh, customer service agents and as the business of, uh, it was called toon store was going down. We didn’t want to fire people. We wanted to try to find them, you know, new projects and stuff. So we, we, um, but. What we realized is, uh, uh, uh, to grow a business with, with, uh, customer service, it’s harder, uh, if you like a boutique kind of stuff, if you want to do mass stuff, like, you know, uh, with thousands of people, then you can grow that and it’s dirt cheap and it’s just churn.

But if you want to create a great work culture, uh, with, you know, people who stay and, and, um. Uh, uh, something where it’s not like thousands of people that you’re just who are just numbers, then software development was, was better because the margins are higher as well and allows us to create a better, better company that is maybe lasting longer and, uh, is more.

It’s it’s more knowledge involved. There’s more technology because all the customer stuff. Okay. There’s been years. They’re saying, oh, is going to take the jobs and stuff, but I think it’s really coming now for software engineers. Yes, I will, uh, probably, uh, increase the productivity of people a lot. It might reduce a little bit the demand, but.

We still need to have people who are trained as engineers to talk to computers to understand what code is, uh, and so on. It’s not like you can just take someone off the street and give them chat GPT and then build me a software, right? That’s not how it works. That would be awesome for all those budding software founders.

But sadly, there is a barrier to entry. There is. There is right. And, uh, and, and, and, and like, I think that’s something that we’re all going to have to grapple with with AI that, you know, it’s a, I does your leg work, but it doesn’t do your, your strategy. It doesn’t develop your plan to develop your products.

It’s going to help. Oh, it helps a lot write questions and I use it every day, and I think it’s super useful to be smarter. Yeah. But it’s not gonna do the work for you. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And I guess like now we talk about like ANA 2.0 or outsourcing 2.0. When you had that conversation with Alan that night over a pizza and a beer, what, what did you strive to create?

When you built out Arcana, it’s like, obviously a revenue stream that worked. Let’s not, let’s not joke about that. What did you, what did you really want to create? Like, what, what were you, what were you thinking at that moment? So the 1st thing I think we talked about, uh, maybe that night or maybe later, I don’t know, but I think.

Our dream was to create a technology company in a way. Um, and so the way to do this for us was to create, uh, Arcanis. And then pretty quickly, it became, okay, we have devs. Um, we help companies build their products and stuff like that, and down the road, because this is not the technology company per se, we create, uh, we created, uh, first Arcanis Labs that now is Arcanis Ventures, where we invest in startups that we find.

Interesting, both in the team that’s running them, uh, and the product or the service they’re selling, um, and, and their culture and their values. Right? And so for us, that’s how we kind of create or own partially, um, uh, technology companies that we fuel because we fuel the companies with our team members, um, uh, every year.

Right? So, uh, that’s kind of like, uh, indirect way of, of, Okay. Of creating a technology company. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s almost like. We wanted to create a tech company by owning 10 percent of 10 other companies. You know what I mean? And that’s that’s what’s so cool about your unique model. And I think for those who are listening today, and if they, if you are in the process of considering some form of dedicated, um, A dedicated development team, or if you’re looking for a software developers, or if you’re looking to scale your product, one of the things which is unique about Arcanis is their ventures arm, which has some of the best performing small to medium size, like tech startups across the world, mostly Australia.

Are most of your investments in the Australian market? Uh, well, yeah, I mean, maybe half of them, and then the rest is in Europe or Switzerland. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I guess what this tells you about the way Fred operates, guys, is that with the way you do things, Fred, it’s so obvious that you can only make Arcanist Ventures work.

If and only if your tech team has their shit together, you know, and what’s more compelling about this as well is like, if you’re a founder and you’re looking for investment, and then you have someone like Fred, knock on your door and go, Hey, I know you’re looking for investment. You’re going to be using the money to build your product instead of money for, um, money to pay for someone to do the development.

We can provide our. Tip of the spear developers to work inside your business. Now, a lot of developers, when they first hear that we’ll say not developers, a lot of SAS founders, when they first hear that, they think, oh, there’s some fill my team with shitty developers, but that’s not a way you would get a return on your money.

Is it like you need to actually have your very best team members in the, in, in the startups, which you’ve got a deep. Invested interested. Otherwise, you’re not going to get any money back. Yeah, because it’s 100 percent the test fee, right? If, if we suck, we don’t get paid and we lose our money that we could put our devs, uh, elsewhere and being paid for that, right?

So we do this when we, when we believe in the team, we do this when we know we can actually make a difference for that company. Cause if we can’t make a difference, then There’s no reason for us to come in. Um, and, and so, yeah, uh, we only get paid if we succeed, right? And because it’s a significant part of our business, um, we, we want to make sure that, uh, that we, we succeed.

We didn’t get paid yet so much in terms of the exits. We did because it’s only been five years or six years that we. Slowly started doing this, and it has been accelerating, uh, recently. So we had one exit that was a good return on the on the small duration that we that we had. But we are in on in for the long run.

We’re not like looking at making a quick, quick exit. After one year and say, Hey, we want our money back and stuff like that. So we, we want to help build a business as an investment. We want to help companies raise more money at a higher valuation because they are doing stuff that’s working and creating products that people love and, uh, getting more customers, maybe more investment and things like that.

And we might even keep on investing. Uh, in succeeding rounds if we believe in that story and double down, right? Um, and in some cases, um, Founders just start paying our team instead of getting it for free Uh, I mean not for free. It’s for equity, but not I mean easing the cash flow i’d say um, and and then become, um, you know, uh clients and great partners that we I mean keep on helping just uh, Anyone else we’re working with?

Yeah, absolutely and Like, I just want to touch base on the size of your team, because I think like any professional services business, like often businesses try to scale. They go from like a 1 person show, and then they turn into like a 3 person show, and then it’s unmanageable. And then they try and go to an 8 and they shrink and all that sort of crazy stuff.

And this could be a lot like a software team in many sense, because it’s a professional service happening internally inside of an organization. How many developers do you have inside the Arcanist Fabric now? Total number? 280 maybe, something like that. Okay, so I think what’s evident here is that you’ve got 280 developers and they’re all happy and they’re all engaged and they’re all moving along.

99 percent based on the survey, something like that. 99 percent is practically all the developers. It’s not always. It’s pretty good. It’s pretty good. I want to know how in the world did you scale like that and keep everybody engaged and involved? Because I’m sure there’s going to be a technical founder here wanting to know.

It’s like, how did you build such a big software team? This is amazing. Like, how did you do it? How do things not slip through the cracks? Well, uh, the first thing is. Uh, if you, if you look at the day to day stuff, it’s mostly our clients managing their own team. Right? So, um, good. Right. So, uh, that’s the thing.

And we take care of all the HR stuff. So, all the feedback, the coaching, the training, obviously the hiring and all that stuff. We, we, we do that, but the day to day tasks and, uh, the project itself is mostly managed by, uh, our clients. We have some clients for which. We have senior European, uh, architects who are doing the CTO if you want for them, but it’s like maybe 20, 10, 20 percent of the projects that we have.

The rest is managed by the client. So it kind of makes our scaling a little bit easier. Um, uh, because, because of that, right? So, um, but we had to change a few times the structure of, of the management if you want when, uh, as you said, there were stages, right? And so we went through, I don’t know, three, four.

Stages of growth, uh, where we kind of had to stop for a sec, regroup, uh, rearrange how the management was done and then, okay, now we can keep on growing ’cause we’ve removed the, uh, the paints and so yeah. The stage we’re at now is the operations are really running smoothly, but it’s all the support functions that we had.

Um, really under invested in, uh, any at many levels. So accounting is a lot. People are working too, too much. So we have to, uh, help them, um, even sales and marketing. Um, I mean, in sales, I’ve been alone for many, many years. I mean, until, uh, this year. So now we’ve hired another person do that. Um, in, in the marketing.

We also, well. grew and then we’re working with you and another agency as well that, uh, help us like do a lot more stuff that we, that we have been able to do, um, just by ourselves in, in the past. So that’s what we’ve been investing in a lot in the last, uh, uh, year, uh, in the, yeah, eight, nine months. Um, yeah, right.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it has been, it has been really interesting to see. How things have, you know, evolved over the past 6 months with you guys, you know, um, you know, when we got involved, we never saw, you know, any form of demand generation or lead generation happen off Facebook. Like, I’ve never been targeted by an ad.

The first time I heard of you guys, despite like this, the weight the Arcanis name has in the Philippines BPO circuit, um, you never heard of it in Australia. You jump on the website, you think, Oh, who are these people? But it was only until. You know, you got in contact with me and then we started peeling back the layers on how magnificent Arcanis is.

Made me realize, oh shit, like this is an incredible organization that, you know, values not only, you know, doing amazing work for great clients, but it’s one of these businesses that, you know, thinks about the holistic development of the individual. Two. And I think Fred, like, if you want to feel free to talk about a little thing you’ve created on your Arkanis campus, which I know you’re very proud about.

So you can talk to us all about Fred. Everybody has actually created a CrossFit gym for all the Arkanite employees on the campus. And I think this is because of Fred’s love of health and fitness and all that sort of jazz. So. Give us a bit of a background into the health and fitness journey and how you believe, you know, embedding this culture of like company sports and activities and all that sort of stuff.

Ends up creating amazing workplace results. Yeah. So besides the processes, uh, there’s another, um, obsession that, uh, I have is that with CrossFit, right? So, and, um, in the games. I know I started way too late for that stuff. And I don’t, I wish I could spend like five hours in the gym every day, but I can’t.

Um, uh, but so we, we’ve created a CrossFit, uh, affiliate, affiliated CrossFit gym, uh, in St. Lou for. For ourselves, for our employees and soon for the public. So we just opened like two weeks ago for our employees. We’re learning how to run the classes and stuff. We’ve hired two senior coaches from France that we’ve relocated to the Philippines.

We’ve got a really, one of the fittest girls in the Philippines, uh, last year that has joined us. So she’s also a great athlete. And, um, this has started really as a. Something as a personal journey, right? When I was younger and like plenty of issues and and so sports really helped me, uh, with that. And so that’s why I put such an emphasis on on health and fitness as a way to to blossom as a person to grow as a person and and also You know, teaching you good values and things like that, especially in CrossFit, because it’s kind of team based, although it’s not, but you do this, you’re in this together.

And I think it creates great friendships and things like that. So I started. With health and fitness. And then, uh, the first person I tried to convince, uh, was Alan because it was pretty unhealthy when I joined him in Hong Kong, but he didn’t listen to me for many years, um, trying to avoid going to gym and telling me all the reasons why he shouldn’t work out more than twice a week or whatever.

Um, and then also nutrition because I was obese. I, uh, when I was younger, I tried to also learn about. You know, proper nutrition. I’m not perfect, but, um, uh, I’ve tried and, and so I, I saw the effect of myself and then I started bringing this in the company because in the Philippines, people are pretty unhealthy.

They don’t move much. They really like crappy stuff. They didn’t bother me. Uh, it bothers me to see people wasting their potential and their health by not knowing. And so we created these Wednesday classes where I would nag people with stuff, with information about health, about fitness, trying to move.

And then so you can go only so far when you start telling stuff to people and how to do things, you have to show them, right? And so I brought a bunch of people. In Spartan races with me, uh, and and so I think that’s what really started because a bunch of people started liking it and the goal was to beat Fred, you know?

Um, and so the first few ones, they didn’t, they weren’t able to to beat me. Thanks. Uh, they didn’t beat me the first time, but after that they improved and now probably, uh, they’re like a crap ton faster than I am in running or, or better at CrossFit or whatever, but, um, but it started and then, and then it, you know, people liked it and then they, um.

Then they kept going on. And then the last thing that we did with Alan was, uh, so first we created a kitchen in the office trying to serve healthy meals so people, it’s free and then they eat better and, uh, just showing them, you know, like it’s healthy food is not disgusting. It can be really nice. So we had an Australian chef actually, uh, doing the menu and, uh, Insane.

Yeah, because it was… Guy owning a restaurant, we became friends. And then, uh, then when we started the kitchen, we’re like, Hey, Steve, why don’t you help us? Um, and, um, uh, yeah, and so the food and then we started doing like yoga and Zumba yoga classes in the office and recently after traveling a lot around the world, um, and going to various CrossFit boxes.

Every time we came back here, I’m like, yeah. I think we could do something to improve the landscape of CrossFit in Cebu. Wow. And so I tried to convince Alan about this. Um, and very quickly we were like, okay, let’s do this. Uh, let’s, let’s start building a place. So we had to find a place and build it. And, uh, now we’re open.

How long did it take you to get Alan off the couch and into a CrossFit gym? Um, so in Hong Kong, I started bringing him to fitness first. A few times, uh, but he didn’t like it and I understand why the gym is, you know, can be intimidating and it’s not that fun, you know, it’s just working, um, but I have a good friend who, whom I, I, I met in Bali years ago and, um, and he got into CrossFit and he was, I saw the journey he had and how he’s been transformed, like physically, as well.

Um, and one day he’s like, Hey, one of the coaches in Bali, uh, moved to the Philippines. Go to that box and try it out because I’ve been telling you to try it out for years. And I was scared because CrossFit has a bad reputation, which is not true, but that’s what it is. And I don’t want to get injured and stuff.

So I didn’t go. And finally I went, I found it made, it was hard, but I’m like, Holy crap, that’s, that’s it. You know, cause I was bored at the gym. I needed something else. Yep. And I went once or twice and then I told Alan, I think you should try it out. And then he came and I think almost immediately he is like, okay, that’s it.

That’s what I’m gonna do. what? It only took him one class. And then, uh, we both obsessed with CrossFit and that’s how we. Yeah. And he’s better than me in many aspects in CrossFit now because he’s so dedicated and, and, uh, he’s super into it. So that is actually so funny. I didn’t realize it was only one class.

So it, it’s often, it’s, it’s really a case of like your own internal product market fit. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s just like, Oh, you come to the, come to, you know, come to the gym, come for a run. Let’s go bike riding. Let’s go swimming. Let’s go this. And then all of a sudden, cross country cross country skiing becomes their new addiction.

And yeah, I think the reason for Alan and also me is because there’s constant learning and you’re pushing your boundaries all the time. And so for him, I, I, he never told me that, but I’m sure it’s that he’s like, he realized that I’m going to learn. New things my whole life doing CrossFit because it’s so complex and but you also can measure it and there’s a lot of strategy in there as well.

So I think it’s typically made for him like he loves it and, uh, um, he’s strategizing all the time is calculating everything when I’m asking, I’m like, Oh, it’s like a calculation and stuff and you’re like, Oh, yeah. Okay. Of course. Yeah. Uh, so, uh, yeah, that’s the thing for him. There’s math, you know, there’s, uh, there’s, uh, uh, learning.

And so that’s for, uh, um, Well, I can’t believe that. That’s amazing. So like, I think you would have to be the only BPO with their own dedicated CrossFit gym in the Philippines. That has to be, I think that’s something you can claim. Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, uh, we’re probably not the only ones who have a gym or something like of that sort, but a CrossFit for sure.

Yeah, CrossFit. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty amazing. Like the way you look at like the holistic development of the individual. At Arcanis, and I think it’s so cool to see that, you know, developers come to you, not completely junior, because again, you’ve got a policy that you really want tip of the spear developers inside your organization.

They come in as, you know, really quality, mid level developers. They become someone great. And, you know, at the end of their journey, they don’t start out, um, as. No, they don’t end up as just a better developer. They end up as a better person. They, they understand nutrition, sleep. They understand diet. They understand working out.

They may leave Arcanis. They then move to greener pastures across in Western countries and pick up amazing job opportunities. Like, how does that feel? Like, you’re really making a difference, Fred, if you think of it that way. Well, we, I mean, we, we don’t, I don’t know, we, as Swiss people, I don’t know how it is in other countries, but we’re very, you know, we, we come from a reformed or protestant kind of a background and, um, it’s very Um, I don’t know how to say it.

It’s very sober. So it’s about doing stuff working. We don’t celebrate much. We should do that more. I mean, I think we’re not good at that. Um, and we just do stuff we believe in. And, uh, it’s true. It’s nice when you see people, uh, uh, you know, growing and stuff like that. And there’s a bunch of people that We see them change quite a lot and it’s impressive and it’s not pride because I’m just happy for them, you know, and, and, and so, uh, uh, yeah, that’s, that’s pretty much it.

There’s 1 area where we know we have to improve his mental health, um, and we’ve seen these during covid and, uh, we can’t do everything at the same time, but that’s kind of the next, um, I think the next chapter. For us is to, um, is to at least for me on the radar is to help, uh, more with, uh, mental health.

Yeah, it’s a, it is a tough one. You know, um, I think professional services businesses, um, and it’s not just, uh, you know, dedicated, um, outsourcing shops, like yourself, like it’s, it’s like the accountants of the world, anyone that’s in B2B, um, professional services, it is tough because there’s like, there’s huge, there’s huge deadlines.

Yeah. Um, you know, the stakes are high a lot of the time. Um, so many competing priorities, many clients wanting your attention at any given time. Like, it’s and, you know, I think mental health is 1 of those things that it’s, it’s getting big in Australia. I’m not sure what it’s like in the Philippines or in in Switzerland or any of those other countries, but, you know, it’s, it’s really.

Gaining momentum. And, you know, the more we know about it, the better it’s going to be for people to really enjoy work. Um, yeah. Have you got any initiatives on the cards that you’re planning to roll out with Arcanis at this point? So we started in June working a lot more on the diversity and inclusion, uh, policies and stuff like that because we know we can do that better and that was triggered by an article that I’ve been invited to write in Tatler about my own experience as a part of the LGBT community and talk about it.

My journey and I’m like, okay, it’s the month of June. I’m talking about this. Um, and, and I just reflected on my journey and I’m like, oh, shit, I wish you’d do something.

Because I’ve been lucky to be able to go through that and come out of this, uh, because it was not always easy. Right? Okay, and so why don’t we try to offer these to people like they feel comfortable at work because when I started working, I was in the closet. I was afraid. You know, I didn’t know how people would judge me and stuff, especially in Switzerland, which was pretty conservative, especially in the financial services industry.

Um, so, uh, I don’t want people, um, at our counties to experience the same stuff. I want them to come as they are at work, um, and just be themselves, you know, and, and not be afraid. And, and, um. Because if one thing goes well, then the other goes well, you know, it’s this virtuous circle. And so we want to try to ignite that spark if you want.

And so whether it could be by sports, doing sports, or which gives a lot of confidence, or it could be yeah, Uh, feeling, you know, a part of something or feeling like you can bring yourself completely at work and with your team members that you’re safe. And so that’s kind of like, uh, I think that’s kind of like the next thing I’m, I want to do.

Yeah, man, like, that’s a real brave step and, you know, good on you for, for being a champion of diversity and inclusion in your business, because that is such a tough gig. You know, like, I can only say this coming from being, um, a heterosexual male, um, obviously with a beautiful wife who works inside the agency who you’ve met, luckily, Fred, and I’m a blessed man, but, you know, like your journey, um, and being, you know, as you said, like, closeted in the financial services, which is very much a bro culture in many In many ways and able to wrestle with that.

And now, obviously, you’ve been able to build this incredible, like, wildly successful software development business. And, you know, now you’ve got that opportunity in that position of privilege and responsibility to really champion for people to be themselves at work and be comfortable and knowing that they’re going to be accepted being themselves at work.

Like, wow, it’s. It’s that’s crazy. So, wow. I don’t even know where to, I don’t even know where to go on, on this topic. Like, I don’t know. I I’m here, I’m here for a marketing and business podcast, man. I know, but it’s been great. You know, I, so many things I didn’t expect talking about. So you, you, I think you ask great questions and, uh, uh, so yeah, uh, reflecting on what I said is like, actually you don’t realize how much power you have to, to change other people’s lives.

Until you talk about it, because for me, like before the Tata article, I just do my thing and I do what I think is great, but it’s just like, you know, um, and then you have other people looking at all what you’ve done is amazing because of this and this and that. And you’re like, at the beginning, you’re like, well, we just did what you know what you think is right.

And then, uh, which is the case anyway, but then you realize, oh, but I’m actually able. To influence people’s lives in a good way. Um, and it’s actually super motivating to hear that feedback and like, Oh shit, I can do more. Actually, I could do more, you know? And so it’s a great, it’s a great feeling to, to realize that then like, okay, I should do more.

Yeah, and it’s, it’s really interesting. Um, Fred that, like, at O& D, like, I’m really proud of the clients that we get to work with in the sense that if, if I can’t, this is just a rule that I have, and this is a weird rule. I’m not sure if I’ve ever disclosed this on the internet, but if I can’t look up to.

The client as either a mentor or someone who I’d aspire to be like or aspire to have many qualities like in the next 5 to 10 years. It’s not the right client for us. You know, and I see the work that you do as a, as a leader in the sales and marketing team as a co founder, as a man, who’s really understood this whole engagement and process piece to building out a massive, um, a massive company, like it really is a monster, like 280 devs is like, how many total stuff?

Isn’t it nearly 400 now? No, uh, maybe, maybe at the end of the year, we’re like maybe 320, 330, something. Yeah, it’s not, it’s not a trivial business that you’ve built and like, you’ve, you’ve done some amazing work. And, you know, I think that. You know, for those out there who feel like they’re on the, they’re, they’re a fringe minority in the society and, um, and stuff like that.

Like, you look up to someone like Fred, who has actually gone through it. And just for just for those listening who feel like they’re not. In an inclusive environment or they feel like, well, what was that? Sorry. Five minutes. Yeah. Yeah. I need to go after that. I’m sorry. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll cut this bit out.

Keep going. Sorry. We can cut that. But that really have to go. Yeah. Yeah. That’s okay. For those who, um, for those who feel like they’re not part of the fold and they may not feel like they fit in like Fred has like, like, what would you. What sort of advice would you give them?

Maybe it’s just an illusion, uh, that you don’t fit in, you know, uh, it’s what you, because you’re hard on yourself. You’re like, you know, people, I mean, most, I don’t, a lot of people maybe look at themselves and are overly critical. And I, I, I used to be like that and, you know, bashing myself for all my shortcomings.

And I still do it in some fashion. Right. But, uh, we create these stories in our heads that Are probably not true. And we feel like we’re judged by all these people, but most people, most people don’t give a shit. They just see you as who you are. And, uh, uh, and yeah, you don’t have, uh, friends. Not everyone’s your friend, but majority of things are going well.

And, uh, and, uh, and then it’s just about realizing the value you have as a unique person. Uh, you have strengths and weaknesses and being aware of that and. Focusing on, on your strength, uh, and, and working on your weaknesses, uh, maybe, uh, in the, in the, in the background, but, um, there’s so much more than who you are attracted to, for example, or.

Uh, or for some things you don’t like about yourself. That’s not what people see. They see you as human beings and they take what’s good from you. Yeah. And so, uh, but that’s what I took me years to learn it right and to not be ashamed of being in a room or feeling like I was, uh, uh, you know, this imposter syndrome and stuff like that, which I do.

Still do have sometimes, you know, um, but you can’t eliminate it completely. It’s just part of us having doubts. Yeah, I guess. Um, um, but sports helped me. So because the physical parties is, is here, like you can’t deny it. That’s us. We are physical. Being so if you can achieve something with your body, um, or you see improvement with your body and you can do this with friends and they accept you, uh, it can help you build your confidence, which then kind of, uh, helps you in other areas of your life.

Wow. That’s some, that’s some amazing things to part with. Now, I am really blessed because you’ve spent so much time on this podcast today. And I really enjoyed it. It’s been awesome. I’m not even going to ask you to plug Owens any, it’s all good. We can get that for another episode. What was that? Sorry. No, it’s true.

I thought you have great questions. Um, ’cause we didn’t prepare anything. Right. And, uh, really nice we got in there. I think that was part of the fun because I think that whenever Fred and I have a chat guys, it’s always like a fair, like a fairly natural like chemistry in the way we communicate and it’s all very flowing and I thought that would be the best way to run this.

Um, Fred, like it’s been. A true pleasure being on here. If you get any final words to the audience, like, if you want to plug Arcanis, go for it. Um, you can talk about what you have on offer at the minute, like, go, go, go nuts. What do you want to say? No, I mean, I have nothing, nothing else to add. I mean, we’re just, uh, you know, a software development company, uh, that’s extending, uh, Development teams.

We’re trying to do our best for our employees, our clients. Uh, if what I said is interesting to you and you want to reach out to me, uh, you can do so on LinkedIn or even simply on the Arcanis. com website. Um, and thank you for listening, uh, this far, uh, in the, in the episode. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to open source growth with Frederick Joy, co founder and head of sales and marketing.

At Arcanus it’s been unreal. And if you liked what you heard on this episode, feel free to smash that subscribe button on any of the podcasting platforms that you are tuning into today. I’m your host, Dean Denny founder and director of Owen Denny digital Australia’s number one SAS marketing agency. I’ll talk to y’all soon.

Catch you later. Alright, there we go. Thank you. Yeah. That was fun. We got to do that more often. Yeah, that was good. Thank you. You’re so welcome. And you’re looking sharp. I, I’m, I’m going to buy that shirt again because I freaking miss it so much. So last, I really have to go cause I’m going to be late for my appointment.

But my haircut, sorry, um, but I hated this portal. I like, I like the, so this is like a linen, right? I like this fabric. Um, I like the shirts, but I hated the, the, the fitting. And now they have like this slim fit stuff, which potato bag. Um, so then I got some, yeah, look, they’ve got slim fit, custom fit and classic fit.

It used to be better fitting about 10 years ago, but, um, yeah, I think this is a medium slim fit. That’s what I found. I have a medium slim fit and it’s great. Oh man, we can share clothes with like the, we could be like the yaya sisterhood. It’d be great.

All right. Have fun at your haircut. I’ll speak to you all soon. Um, I’ll, I’ll talk to the video editor and he’ll sort this out. Cool. And then just one thing. Um, if you send me the recording as well, we can, uh, add this to our own podcast. I’ll just make an intro and an outro at the end, and then we can smack this in there.

And I think that’d be great. That’d be amazing. We can do that. Thank you. Bye.


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠

I Now Have Two Mornings Per Day. Here’s How:

In this podcast episode of “Open Source Growth,” Dean, the founder and director of Owendenny Digital, discusses the impact of health on entrepreneurship. He shares his personal experience of giving up caffeine due to health reasons and emphasizes the importance of maintaining good health for business success.

Dean introduces a unique working arrangement he and his wife have adopted, where he dedicates the first four hours of the day to deep work and strategic tasks, capitalizing on the scientifically proven peak productivity time for men. He then hits the gym in the middle of the day, experiencing a second wave of clarity and energy, allowing for increased productivity and a more balanced lifestyle.

Dean encourages self-employed entrepreneurs to consider incorporating a midday workout into their schedules and invites feedback on the potential scientific backing for this approach.

Overall, he highlights the positive impact this lifestyle change has had on his business and personal life.

Here are the top 5 lessons learned from this podcast:

1. Prioritize Health for Business Success: Dean emphasizes the crucial role that personal health plays in entrepreneurial success. Taking care of one’s well-being can lead to increased productivity and overall business growth.

2. Strategic Time Management: Implementing strategic time management is key. Dean discusses the importance of dedicating the first four hours of the day to deep work and critical business tasks, taking advantage of the scientifically proven peak productivity time for men.

3. Adopt a Balanced Lifestyle: A balanced lifestyle is essential for sustained success. Incorporating a midday workout, as suggested by Dean, not only provides physical benefits but also contributes to mental clarity and enhanced energy levels, positively impacting work performance.

4. Customize Work Schedule to Fit Productivity Peaks: Acknowledge and leverage personal productivity peaks. Dean recommends aligning work tasks with individual energy levels, such as focusing on strategic work in the morning and incorporating a workout during midday to maintain optimal productivity.

5. Flexibility in Work Routine for Global Clients: For entrepreneurs dealing with clients in different time zones, flexibility in the work routine is crucial. Dean shares insights into breaking up the day to accommodate international clients, highlighting the importance of adaptability in a global business landscape.

Hey everyone. And welcome to open source growth. It’s Dean here, founder and director of Owendenny Digital, Australia’s top ranked SaaS marketing and growth agency, where we discuss everything from direct response advertising, customer acquisition strategies, marketing, brand strategy, and a whole lot more.

Now today’s episode is part of that whole lot more where we like to duck into things that the everyday software CEO and CMO will experience. And this is all about your health.

A few episodes ago, I released a podcast on my experiences in Indonesia. And I was talking to everyone about how I gave up caffeine by necessity. After being diagnosed with dyspepsia. Now. I’m not sure if dyspepsia may have been a false positive at the time. However, it felt like I had something completely wrong with me. And regardless of whether that was true.

I’m still off the caffeine. Five days out of seven. And I’m experiencing the overwhelming benefits of really getting your shit together when it comes to a great diet, plenty of water, no caffeine, no substances. And you know what it has been blowing my business op. We’ve had our biggest quarter ever.

Um, in the last quarter of the financial year. Uh, we’ve got an amazing slew of incredible clients that have joined the agency. And you know what I’m feeling on board and I think I’ve done it again. I think I found another hack, which I simply cannot wait to reveal to you guys today. Now if you are a CEO or a founder or a head of growth or a sales person. You would all understand the pressures and stresses and what it takes for you to succeed? From a health perspective as a entrepreneur. Right. You know, there’s early mornings. There’s late evenings. There’s conversations you need to have with your team to get them riled up. There’s a whole heap of, you know, sales calls you may need to make, if you, especially, if you’re a growth lead founder, um,

And, you know, back to back to back 50 to 60 hour weeks, or even 80 hour weeks for some entrepreneurs is just simply unsustainable. Your health will give way, you’ll start developing a whole heap of weird things like I did. A few weeks back when I had a style in my eye. And. You know, It’s it’s really crucial that you do whatever you can to maintain your health. Now, my wife and I, and I’m going to get her on the podcast at some point. Hannah, she’s the copywriter here at Owendenny digital. Um, that’s how that came to be is a story for another day for all you lovely people, but. My wife and I were thinking like, how can we change this? How can we hard code life into our schedule? How can we hard code?

Exercise into our schedule and how can we do the best we possibly can with the 24 hours we’re given each day. Now here’s some additional facts. Number one, it’s scientifically proven that your best work happens as a man. From the moment you wake up to the four hours after you wake up. So if you’re a biological male,

You’re more than likely to be able to do your best thinking your heaviest work between the moment you wake up and the four hours after that, which means that as a guy. It makes it doesn’t really make sense for you to go straight to the gym in the morning. If you want to do your thinking, if you want to do your strategic work, you want to get your deep work done. It makes perfect sense for you to not go to the gym right away. But instead.

Go and about your most critical long-term shit that you need to do in your business. Right? But then there’s the other side of the coin where it’s like, well, often you go to the gym, you feel unstoppable because you’ve done the reps, you’ve done the weightlifting, you’ve punched the bag. You’ve ran the kilometers on the treadmill, or you’ve swammed the laps in the pool or whatever your exercise choices may be.

And those endorphins can push you through the day. So I was talking to Hannah about this. I was thinking well, I’m kind of in a bind here honey. I’m I’m a male. Um, I have. You know, I I’ve got my best work. Possibly. can only come from like waking up early and grinding it out. But then I also want to make the most of when my testosterone levels are highest, which are between those four hours.

So, what do we do? And how to came up with this cutting-edge solution. It’s not really that complex FYI, everybody, but she came up with this great idea and she goes, Dean, you know what we’re going to do? You’re going to get up early. You’re going to work for four hours and then you’re gonna go to the gym.

Now the reason why I have named this podcast. The I get two mornings a day. And here’s how it’s because of the fact that I am working out in the middle of the day. And what’s insane about this is that my typical day involves me waking up at about six or six 30, depending on how long the snuggles in bed go for with my beautiful wife. I literally get up.

Pour a cup of decaf coffee and just get to work. And that’s sits at around about, you know, seven o’clock I’m doing work and then all the way through to 10 30. I am just working. I’m doing deep work. I’m recording podcasts, just like this one today. And I’m getting all the long-term strategic vision stuff done for the business, because that is.

100% the most difficult shit to do. As a founder, when you have teammates, you’ve got to get that done before anyone is up. It sounds crazy. It sounds like you need to have two workdays and one, yeah, you kind of do when you kick off as a founder, but that’s what you often need to do is just get up as early as you possibly can. Feasibly not, I’m not saying just join the 5:00 AM club Willy nilly, right?

Like you need to be able to do this. And then it’s at your time when you’re most productive as a man to get in there and do the best work you possibly can for the first three to four hours a day, use timers, the Pomodoro technique, like whatever it takes for you to be most productive and most efficient during this time, which provides you with the greatest leverage inside your organization.

That’s how the first four hours of your week need to begin. Not the fall, not the week, the first four hours of your day need to begin. Now. Why I’m saying it feels like you get a second. Wind or a second morning in a day. It’s because of the fact that when you get to the gym and then you get through your, your gym workouts, or you go to the swimming pool and you do your swim or whatever exercise you choose to go about doing, believe it or not, the endorphins replicate that same feeling of clarity that you’ve experienced in the morning.

So essentially you can get to.

Beautiful mornings in a single day. It is absolutely insane. And. Why this has been fundamentally important for myself as well. And this is a little disclaimer, is that. When you run a marketing agency, which has international clients from all over the world, like we are so blessed to be working with companies that have teams in Switzerland, in the Philippines, in Singapore. Um,

In Indonesia, like we’ve had so many incredible clients beyond Australia. We’ve also worked with companies in the United States. Um, in the UK, like there’s so much diversity with the work that we do in the companies and the clients we so graciously serve. That. Often you need to be on your toes. Much.

Longer in duration than your typical. You know, nine to five job in Australia. See if we were only servicing Australian clients, you know, getting up at six and working till five makes pretty logical sense. But when you have clients in different time zones, It makes perfect sense that you’re able to break up your day. So like what I’m starting to realize here, that I think that a lot of you self employed entrepreneurs may have the opportunity to do such a thing or self-employed marketers, or if you’ve got a business or you’ve got flexible working conditions from home.

As a man, I would totally suggest you to consider doing a workout during the middle of the day. Don’t go and wait for the end of the day, you’re going to feel rooted and you’re not going to get any of the clear minded benefits. I know a lot of people use the workout at the gym as a means to book end day.

However, I believe that if you can get to unique opportunities to do great work in a day, why wouldn’t you. Because you’re going to be feeling better because you get all the hard. Work that needs to be done totally uninterrupted. And it’s going to feel great. And you know that you’re not wasting, you know, quote unquote communication hours. When you have to communicate with people, you then get to the gym. And then when you communicate through these conversations, because you’ve worked on your self esteem, you’ve worked on pushing those reps or any of those hard quote, unquote activities that you need to do.

You get in there and you feel like, oh, Hey, this isn’t a problem. I can bounce through this. Or, oh, I’m reading this right now. Yeah, that’s fine. Like any form of like emotional, um, you know, turbulence that you may experience. In the afternoon, you can quite simply abolish in real time. So I’m not sure how scientifically backed this is. Let me know in the comments section of this video. So if you do know anything about the logic of having a workout during the middle of the day, I want to know about it because I sincerely believe that this is the reason why.

Were accomplishing a whole lot more. We’re feeling a whole lot more relaxed and feeling as if we’re living a whole lot more life. Now that we’re doing this in our household. See Hannah spends a lot of the time in the morning feeling creatively inspired. She’s doing amazing work inside the house. Like she’s, whether she’s doing art or she’s riding or she’s journaling or she’s learning, I’m spending a great.

Majority of my morning doing things. I love like reading great books and learning about particular marketing things and building our marketing strategy for our own agency. Like all the stuff that I love to do is getting done before 1130 and then all the things I need to do happen after that. And it’s making a tremendous difference in our business. And I want to give you the challenge.

Give this a go, like, honestly, give this unique working arrangement. If you’ve got the capacity to do it a go and let me know. I want to see if there’s any science behind this, because at the end of the day, this has made a massive difference to the way we live our lives. And holy smoke. I think it’s going to enable us to grow a whole lot further.

As an agency. So guys, I hope this has been value to you. Uh, if you’ve got any further questions, feel free to hit me up. Dean dot denny@owend.com. You can check out all my email, et cetera, et cetera in the job notes. But if you need some assistance with your direct response advertising, or if you’re struggling to get your software company to grow.

Just hit the link in the job notes of book, a friendly chat with me. We can go through what you’re currently doing. Explore some opportunities to see whether or not you may be able to grow through the power of paid traffic and direct response advertising. And we can take it from there. Anyway, guys, this has been unreal. Thank you so much for tuning in my name’s Dane, founder, and director of O and D digital. And you’re listening to open-source growth. Be well


Connect with Dean Denny, host of Open Source Growth and Director at Owendenny Digital

Owendenny Digital, Australia’s #1 SaaS Marketing Agency


Two options:

1 – If you *already* know you need an expert to help you build predictable and scalable customer acquisition solutions to scale your MRR.

To get started, book a Free Growth Diagnostic using the link below and let us show you how we can help.

⁠⁠⁠Get Your Free Growth Diagnostic⁠⁠⁠

2 – If you *do not yet know* if you would benefit from our services, book a FREE 10-min chat with Dean directly and let’s talk about your business.

⁠Have a friendly 10-minute chat with Dean⁠

We look forward to hearing from you! ⁠⁠⁠